Boeing engineers union votes to reject contract
SEATTLE (AP) — Boeing's union of engineers and technical workers overwhelmingly rejected the aerospace giant's first contract offer in ballots tallied Monday night.
Union leaders for the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace, or SPEEA, had recommended that the union's 23,000 members say no to Boeing's four-year contract offer.
No strike is imminent. A strike can't occur without a separate membership vote.
Both sides said negotiations would resume Tuesday.
Engineers in the professional unit rejected the offer by 9,770 to 454, the union said. Technical workers turned it down 5,327 to 154.
"We hope the vote results clear away the nonsense and allow us to begin substantive negotiations," Ray Goforth, SPEEA executive director, said in a statement. "Until now, meaningful discussions have eluded us because the Boeing negotiating team was convinced they understood the members better than the SPEEA negotiating team."
Goforth said the contract offers — one covering about 15,500 engineers and another covering about 7,500 technical workers — gave the company too much power to change provisions. They also included higher out-of-pocket costs for medical benefits and drastically changing retirement benefits at a time of record company profits.
"In the spirit of good faith, we will continue to listen closely to your negotiations team," Boeing said late Monday night in a website statement to SPEEA-represented employees. "As was true when we made our initial proposal — we are committed to continuing discussions, answering questions and considering any proposals or counterproposals from your negotiations team."
The company said that while the contract expires Oct. 6, it remains in effect until Nov. 25.
Boeing's vice president of engineering for Boeing Commercial Airplanes, Mike Delaney, has said the company will move engineering work out of the Puget Sound region if it is forced to give local employees higher compensation and benefits, The Seattle Times reported last week.
"We'll keep hiring people to build 737s. But slowly over time, if you become uncompetitive, you have to deal with the arbitrage and leverage other resources," Delaney told The Times editorial board last week.
Boeing engineers and technical workers have rallied at various sites in the Puget Sound region in recent weeks. The members largely work in the Seattle area with some in Oregon, Utah and California.
Boeing's offer would have raised overall compensation for engineers by 3.5 percent annually for the next four years. The increase for technical workers would have been 3 percent the first year and 2.5 percent for the next three years. The union said the proposed pay raises would not keep up with inflation.
The company has proposed switching retirement benefits for new hires from a pension plan to a 401k plan. The union said the proposal would provide 40 percent fewer dollars to the retiree.
Union leaders for the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace, or SPEEA, had recommended that the union's 23,000 members say no to Boeing's four-year contract offer.
No strike is imminent. A strike can't occur without a separate membership vote.
Both sides said negotiations would resume Tuesday.
Engineers in the professional unit rejected the offer by 9,770 to 454, the union said. Technical workers turned it down 5,327 to 154.
"We hope the vote results clear away the nonsense and allow us to begin substantive negotiations," Ray Goforth, SPEEA executive director, said in a statement. "Until now, meaningful discussions have eluded us because the Boeing negotiating team was convinced they understood the members better than the SPEEA negotiating team."
Goforth said the contract offers — one covering about 15,500 engineers and another covering about 7,500 technical workers — gave the company too much power to change provisions. They also included higher out-of-pocket costs for medical benefits and drastically changing retirement benefits at a time of record company profits.
"In the spirit of good faith, we will continue to listen closely to your negotiations team," Boeing said late Monday night in a website statement to SPEEA-represented employees. "As was true when we made our initial proposal — we are committed to continuing discussions, answering questions and considering any proposals or counterproposals from your negotiations team."
The company said that while the contract expires Oct. 6, it remains in effect until Nov. 25.
Boeing's vice president of engineering for Boeing Commercial Airplanes, Mike Delaney, has said the company will move engineering work out of the Puget Sound region if it is forced to give local employees higher compensation and benefits, The Seattle Times reported last week.
"We'll keep hiring people to build 737s. But slowly over time, if you become uncompetitive, you have to deal with the arbitrage and leverage other resources," Delaney told The Times editorial board last week.
Boeing engineers and technical workers have rallied at various sites in the Puget Sound region in recent weeks. The members largely work in the Seattle area with some in Oregon, Utah and California.
Boeing's offer would have raised overall compensation for engineers by 3.5 percent annually for the next four years. The increase for technical workers would have been 3 percent the first year and 2.5 percent for the next three years. The union said the proposed pay raises would not keep up with inflation.
The company has proposed switching retirement benefits for new hires from a pension plan to a 401k plan. The union said the proposal would provide 40 percent fewer dollars to the retiree.
no wonder microsoft prefers foreign workers. they'll do the job at low wages with no complaint.
Well this article that is on the front of KOMO now, doesn't help the workers much.... http://www.komonews.com/news/boeing/ANA-says-its-greatly-disappointed-with-Boeing-over-latest-787-glitch-172329981.html
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Please allow me to reiterate. SPEEA is not a Union, it is an Association. It just so happens that SPEEA is the collective bargaining arm of the Professional Engineering Association. The engineers and technical employees had chosen not to belong to a âunionâ a long time ago which is why the SPEEA acronym stands for the Society of Professional Engineering Employees Association. Let me put it another way: would you take your family on a commercial jet knowing that the engineering work had been accomplished by contract engineers that last month were engineering timer controls for toasters in India or remote controls for television sets in China? Is that worth risking your family for?
Bring in the SCABs **facepalm**
 @left-center as much as I'd like to agree with you. They are a union. They even claim to be a union on their website.Â
http://www.speea.org/Join_Our_Union!/Benefits_of_SPEEA.html
@Jim I know they like to refer to the organization as a union, but having been a member since 1986 I know the oriigins of SPEEA and it is an organization. Note that before joining SPEEA I was a member of an organized union the IAM.
3% does not sound lower than inflation.Â
Good luck to you. You have more bargaining power than when I was an engineer there in the 80's and 90's. Maybe you can make those SPEEA dues worthwhile.
I swear this seems to be standard procedure wth the boeing unions... I hope the company is seeing this trend and starts saving the better offers for later as they know if they offer the best first they will still get rejected anyway. I just see Boeing eventually leaving this state and the unions losing the ability to complain so much....
Although I neither agree no disagree with SPEEA's position as I have not thoroughly read through the issues, I do believe that any organized negotiating group, union or otherwise, must take into consideration not only the profit margin of the company, but the present economic climate as well. With an 8.5% unemployment rate and people giving up on looking for work because the market is too saturated, it will be difficult for SPEEA or any union for that matter to garnish agreement or understanding for increased salaries or benefits from those working or seeking work in the private sector.
 @Snarklepuss you neglected to take into consideration the billions of dollars in profits they have made in just the last year
@Joe Blow Joe, no I didn't. What I said was that those in the private sector will have a difficult time agreeing with or understanding SPEEA's or any other negotiating groups demands in this economic climate whether or not the company made a profit in the last year. In other words, they will be hard-pressed to find sympathy from non-union/committee/association employees.
I love all these union workers that say "We just want the raise we deserve when the company is making more profits" That is all well and good, but I guarantee you, none of them would be willing to take a pay cut in those years when profits are down. They only want to share in the companies success, but when it comes to down profits, well that's not their problem. And why is it that after every contract expires, the next one must be bigger and better with more benefits, higher wages, better retirement. What is wrong with the contract you agreed to a few years ago?
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Union = Pay me more for doing less.
 @The206 Well it doesn't really matter what we think of the contract we agreed to a few years ago, as our current contract is about to expire and we NEED to negotiate a new one. Boeing didn't offer us an equivalent contract. What they offered was take aways across the board. We would actually be making less at the end of the contract they offered. I don't know about you. But would you be willing to accept a contract that potentially takes away your retirement that you've worked for? Would you be willing to accept a contract that has you earning less in 4 years than you are making currently? I don't think so.
mabey they should start their own plane building company. Then they can have whatever portion of the profit they see fit.
Here we go again......
I wholeheartedly agree that when a company is seeing record profits that it should pass on those rewards to its employees. However, in this day and age, most companies don't. Boeing said that they wouldn't feel obligated to hang around here if the Union fought too hard with them over this. Striking is not worth losing your job over.
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Most people not in Unions have 2 choices, to continue working for a company that cares less and less for them, or to find new employement. I think SPEEA would do well to remember this before they drag it out too long.
For of you folks that believe SPEEA is a greedy union wanting to take advantage of the company's successes, bear in mind many of those successes came to Boeing because of an educated and well trained engineering workforce. A young engineer just starting out at Boeing has already paid for a minimum of four years for an engineering education. Once hired the education does not stop; specialized engineering fields require aditional education in, physics, hydraulics, strength of materials, statistics, economics, computer design, etc. Most of the engineers I know have at least one specialty and the education credential to support it. And many of our engineers are PhDs and are considered the leaders in their field. When was the last time you heard of a Boeing MBA writing a safety specification that made it safer for the flying public to fly on a commercial jet? It is time to get the notion that SPEEA is just another greedy little union out of your head and come to terms with SPEEA as an organization that helps people stay safe while travrling by air.
Say it isn't so! Greedy Union workers heading for a strike!
 @DDG A lot of the Engineers/techs I've spoken with say they would be happy with the status quo. Boeing is saying that is too much relative to other engineers. They want to undercut workers, but continually pay out huge exec bonuses.
Greedy assumes we want more. We just don't want less during a time of record profits. Sounds fair to me.
@No Time Then I would suggest you get into ownership.
 @Surveyor1 you sound jealous and uneducated
Moving engineering out of the Puget Sound area is a smokescreen. The line doesn't move without technical one-on-one support (SPEEA), so nobody's going anywhere. Also, the only facility equipped with the tooling to build the 737 is Renton, so it's not going anywhere either, not over a labor dispute anyway.
 @johnbe Also people are forgetting that with the new IAM contract, Boeing agreed that the 737 max would remain in Renton.Â
First of all, we are not striking. This was a vote on Boeing's first offer. It was a landslide rejection from both sides of the house, prof and tech. Boeing and SPEEA will be back at the negotiations table today to discuss changes to the offer. I love all the haters here, why shouldn't we want some of Boeing's record profits. The CEO received a 34% pay raise and Boeing wants to offer the designers and techs 3% and 2.5% respectively? Come on, be serious. That small of a pay raise doesn't even cover the cost of inflation. And how did outsourcing the engineering work out for Boeing on the 787? Over 3 years behind schedule trying to have someone else design components of an aircraft. The other threats of Boeing leaving Puget Sound, good luck with that also. Ever heard the term, "Brain drain"? Boeing would experience that on an epic scale if they tried to move elsewhere. Not just anyone can design an aircraft, write the design orders and changes. So, for all of the people out there that say we are greedy, you are sadly mistaken. We just want a very small piece of the pie that Boeing wants to keep for themselves.
 @Thomas Bagby So all the years when profits were low, did you take a pay cut? Are you willing to take a pay cut next year of profits do not meet this years?  I didnt think so. You only want to "get the same thing the company gets" when its good for you, not when it's bad. Unions are a racket and a joke and so are most of it's employees.
Sounds like you were fired to respond to your post The206. When the company isn't doing well, layoffs and warn notices are issued. Boeing has laid off thousands of people when business is lacking. Why shouldn't the workers expect a decent contract offer when the company has a record backlog and profits? Your post is bitter and full of nothing. I think it's time for you to go back to work and man that drive thru window at McDonalds. Ding fries are done, you are the joke here. Enjoy minimum wage chump.
 @The206  @Thomas Bagby Would you be willing to take a pay cut? You sound awfully bitter. We are negotiating a contract during a period of time in which the company is making a killing. I guarantee that if the company was doing worse, then we would be willing to settle for less. What I don't think you're realizing is that what we want is to keep in line with what past trends have been. The offer we rejected was across the board take aways. I don't care who you are, that is unacceptable when the company is posting record sales.
 @Jim  @The206  @Thomas Bagby Most people WOULD be happy with a job salary tied directly to company earnings. The problem with that is if the company makes 20 million, then pays exec bonuses of 15 million, they claim the net income is 5 million.
That's great for you, but while Boeing gets all these tax breaks just to keep them in the state, us poor bastards that don't make 6 figures get to make up all those taxes.
Yes, they are striking because that is an option that they have chosen to exercise. I am an IAM 751 member and come from a long familiy history of being IAM members. We (IAM 751) just agreed to a contract extension on the first vote last year, but you all would'nt know anything about that because it was in the news for all of about five seconds since it was accepted on the first vote. We vote to reject contracts because we know that the company should be taking better care of the employees that make them the record profits that they get to post. I started at the company in 2006 at 12.72 an hour when gas was almost 5.00 a gallon, I was broke for nearly a year because they had refused to change the starting wage for almost 15 years. I understand that 12+ dollars an hour may sound like alot to someone living outside the Seattle area, but I guarantee you that it is almost impossible to live off of. Lucky for me I got moblized and deployed before the union went on strike and got the company to raise the starting wages by almost three dollars, while still a little low for the Puget Sound region, it definetly helped.
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Good for you SPEEA, go get what you deserve. Eff any one that says you should'nt go out and get more money, because in the end, everyone would go and get more money if they were given the opportunity. If they say otherwise they are lying.
 @Kyle Asplund We can't authorize a strike until the end of November.
 @Kyle Asplund They are not striking. at least not yet.
Mostly they're striking because they can. Comes to that, does anyone remember when union/management negotiation reached a contract without a strike at Boeing?
Everyone who has ever worked at the Lazy B Ranch knows the drill... They're told when the current cotract runs out and they're told to save their money so they can pay their bills for the 90 estimated days of a strike. Both sides will claim that they're 'negotiating in good faith' and inevitibly there will be some sticking point [either real or perceived] that will make a contract 'impossible'. And this ALWAYS leads to a strike.
Both engineers and machinists struck during the build up to the 777 SPECIFICALLY to hold up delivery of the aircraft and make Boeing lose sales to Airbus. Sometimes I think that Boeing workers strike because the guy who makes $22.50 an hour riding a tricycle around the plant delivering mail can't afford a second boat.
And to be completely fair about this, Boeing management has been trying to kill the health plan and pillage the retirement benefits for 20 years.
In the final analysis, what we have here is a corporate culture that would like nothing more than to use their workers up and disgard the husk and a union only slightly less corrupt than a Colombian drug cartel buggering the economy of an entire regions simply because they can.
 @svensson Speea has only been on strike 1 time. Boeing initiated the 777 strike so they wouldn't have to pay fines for the late deliveries. No what you are talking about.
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 @svensson There is a flaw in your argument, IAM voted to extend the contract months before it was even due for a renegotiation.
 @svensson Oh, and they are not on strike. They just voted no on the 1st contract offer.
What are the members of SPEEA teaching their children? When is it ever appropriate to hold your breath, and stomp your feet to get your way? Hmmmm.
 @JT1958 you are an idiot. Go back to pounding nails and carrying boards
 @JT1958 So you just sit back and take garbage when it's thrown at you? I'd rather teach my kids to have a backbone and stand up for what they feel they deserve than to coward. But hey, that's just me... and 15,000 other people.
@JT1958 You have no clue what you are talking about. Let the adults talk please.
Oh, I know exactly what I'm talkin' about.....I've seen 1st-hand what a union is capable of.
OK the initial vote is over. Now both sides can get to the table and finally start the REAL negotiations.
71.9% of votes counted.
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95.5% of profs. vote to REJECT.
97.1% of techs. vote to REJECT.
I REJECT YOUR REALITY AND INSERT MY OWN! @Ihateupeople
Boeing...not the same Boeing....dirtier and dirtier,meaner and meaner all these management
from McDonnell Douglas ! I support the SPEEA...give them hell !!!!
Every year. Teachers and Boeing. Get over yourselves. You are all replaceable.
I think the next time teachers do it we should lock them up, since it is ILLEGAL! @skcusomok
 @skcusomok your job too can be replaceable don't you know that !
 @scychan Everybody is replaceable.
 @skcusomok I remember Boeing thought that when they tried to farm off critical design work to suppliers. How well did that turn out? Easy to make naive comments from an armchair!
 @KOMODrone#07737  @skcusomok How well did those engineers do on that 787? Made a few mistakes huh?
 @Grumpa hey Grumpa, go back to sleep
 @Grumpa There are always mistakes made in developing brand new technology. Most that were made were due to a failed business model that the engineers tried to warn the company about. If upper-level management would have listened in the first place, the airplane wouldn't have been 3 years late.
 @Grumpa  @Furd The outsourced parts were largely designed by the companies they where out sourced to
 @Furd That is not what some of the engineers on the project told me. He said there were numerous mistakes made and the outside contractors just built it to print. You know the old saying, GIGO (garbage in, garbage out).
 @Grumpa The mistakes on the 787 were due to outsourcing, not the Boeing engineers, technicians or aerospace workers.
 @KOMODrone#07737 Yeah. Current Boeing workers are the only ones that do the job. Get a clue.
 @skcusomok  @KOMODrone#07737 wow, nice reply. name calling always works when you have really nothing to say.
 @skcusomok The professional and tech jobs at Boeing take years for a new employee to be proficient at. Plus, with all of the close to retirement workers in the workforce right now, Boeing would be set back about a decade if they replaced all of their engineers right now and the others retired. Good luck with that.