Eagle Scout rejects medal over Scouts' exclusion of gay members

 @dirtdoctor166 The Supreme Court has never been about impartiality or blind justice. It's a political arm for whoever holds the courts' majority seats

 @kennewickman I guess the Supreme Court disagrees with you

 @Middle Ground Sorry but no. The BSA should lose their national charter and their exclusivity on the word "scouts". 

@wally gruentenheimer @wally  No, my comment was not a shot at you. I read your post and understood you were not a victim. I was just wondering how this was handled by the BSA. Did they just queitly dismiss him or charge him.

After Penn St and and some churches-mum seems to be the standard.

 @Furd  @whoareyou  @kennewickman  @memory9 

 

No it won't. You have to understand where the policy is coming from. I have no doubt the scout leaders from the LDS church who are behind the policy sincerely believe in the rightness of their stance. Their power, however, comes not from the strength of their beliefs - but from the number of scouts the LDS brings into the BSA every year.  They register and pay for all their boys - even those who don't participate. They then run their packs and troops through their own churches - often having little interaction with scouts from secular troops. 

 

If the LDS withdrew from the BSA, membership numbers and revenue would suddenly decline precipitously. This is a big threat to hold over the organization. If people who disagree with them, on the other hand, withdraw little by little - that simply hands more of the assets and benefits of the BSA to LDS leaders. Ultimately the BSA could become an LDS organization. I don't think the prospect of losing government support bothers them. The land alone (for summer camps, etc.) is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. 

 

Boycotting the BSA, calling for an end to preferential treatment - none of that bothers LDS scout leaders. The LDS church is more than able to step in and make up the difference. It is the rest of us who would lose access to a 100-year-old organization that has been built up over years with the love and labor of thousands of dedicated volunteers - who thought they were leaving a lasting legacy to the future. 

 @whoareyou  @kennewickman  @memory9 Stop giving the scouts preferential treatment from governmental agencies and everything will be cool.

@kennewickman The Boy Scouts aren't spending your money either!

Good grief! What are you even talking about? Atheists are not spending your money. I am guessing what you are trying to say is that if a group doesn't push religion, you see them as atheistic and funding them while not funding overtly religious organizations is discriminatory. That would be a moronic view of course. 

@kennewickman So only atheists get to spend public money then.  The religious (the vast majority of tax payers) are not allowed to spend any huh?  Fine.  Atheists can pool their money and pay for themselves and the religious can do the same.  How does that sound?  Oh wait, only a small percentage of the country are atheists, wouldn't be much money for them would it?  What a stupid statement.  I get so sick of liberal atheists only believing that they are the only taxpayers!

 @whoareyou    Another member of the "lack of reading comprehension club" I see. Obviously, they are religious. That is fine. They can do that and teach kids that bushes burn, floods can reach above Mt. Everest and that some humans can hydroplane at will across lakes and rivers for all I care. What I do care about is making sure than no public monies be used to support such a backwards and discriminatory organization.  

@alaska_dreamin @Mike57 Once again, those whom tend to loss a debate resort to childish name calling... 

Well said! Cheers!

 @sarahe26 Being gay isn't the same as advocating civil rights for gays. The number of people whom are exclusively gay is different from the number whom have ever indulged in sex with their own gender.

 

Nobody knows the exact percentages of gay and bi people, but both groups are  minority groups. 10% may be generous when counting people whom are exclusively gay, but the number of people who swing both ways may be larger than expected. 

 

I doubt most people believe anywhere close to everything in the bible.

That makes no sense at all.

 @kennewickman  @Mike57 Madison was the exception, not the norm.

 @usnrbb Perhaps you might want to learn a little more about the founding members and founding documents of this country. The vast majority of signatories to the Constitution were orthodox Christians. Their speeches and writings are replete with Christianity.

 @kennewickman  @Mike57 Slavery is not a Christian principle. Let's lose the propaganda, okay?

 

The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen".

 

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

 

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

 

George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars."

 

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians.

 

I can post examples all night but you wouldn't listen anyway so no need to waste my time on you.

If I thought you knew anything about Christianity I would discuss it with you but you have proven just like the rest of the people that think they know what they are talking about and do not.

Who said anything about John Quincy Adams? I referenced Roger Williams. Williams obtained a royal charter for Rhode Island in 1644. I also never said anything about him being a founding father. I was referencing the QUOTE about Separation of Church and State

 @kennewickman  @memory9 Same with church run food banks and shelters?

 @Mike57 The Wall of Separation has not been used to "silence the religious voice in the marketplace of ideas". That is the stupidest, most ignorant piece of vile tripe I have ever read. Good grief! Look around, there are churches everywhere, there are more religions than one can shake a stick at, there are religious bookstores just about everywhere, the TV is full of blue-haired women on religious channels shucking for money, and our nation even tolerates morons like the fine folks at Westboro Baptist. Please, you insult your own intelligence with a moronic quote like that. Religion does fine all by itself. If you are saying that you feel put upon that you can't go into a school and preach to my children, too bad for you. My family wants none of the mental excrement you label as religion. 

 @Mike57 You do understand that John Quincy Adams is not a Founding Father? Right?

 @Mike57 Quoting Heritage.org is sort of like going to the Creation Museum to learn about genetics. 

 @Mike57 Dude, do even know when Roger Williams lived?

 @Mike57 Boy, your immersion in delusion continues, especially when you say slavery was never a Christian principle. I suggest you check your precious Wholly Babble again, it is replete with all sorts of rules on how to handle slaves. For someone who professes Christian piety, I am stunned at your ignorance about your own religion. Again, I see I have to deal with some denier of history who thinks that C/S Separation never existed. Funny then that Madison seemed to think it existed. I guess you would know better given that you were part of the Constitutional Convention and they were just some hapless poindexters making comments on some blog in the year 2012.

Speak for your self you have not made any sense at all other to call names

 @Mike57 It would appear that you cannot read with comprehension. I would ask how you figure I disagreed with it, but quite frankly I don't care. I'm done with this, I have better things to do with my time than argue with an ignorant close minded fool.

Contained in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, this clause prohibits the government from establishing an official religion. It also prohibits the government from preferring one religion over another, preferring religion over nonreligion, or vice versa

 

And your point is? I did not disagree with that you did.

First off god had sins that he hated and did not hate the sinner but the sin and that is the difference. Second before you confuse things again, I said that ONLY 10% was gay that has nothing to do with GAY RIGHTS. And lastly in every state where Gay marriage has been on the ballot it has failed. That includes California. You obviously have no clue as to what you are talking about when it come to what God will or will not do so on that one you need to find out before you talk for God

@Mike57 

 

This is the legal interpretation of the clause:

 

DEFINITION FROM NOLO’S PLAIN-ENGLISH LAW DICTIONARY:

Contained in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, this clause prohibits the government from establishing an official religion. It also prohibits the government from preferring one religion over another, preferring religion over nonreligion, or vice versa.

 

So quite frankly your interpretation is inconsequential, and way to go with the picking and choosing from my reference. No one is infringing on your right to practice your chosen faith, but you sure seem to expect to infringe on their rights to not live by your religious doctrine. And for the record there are a number of Christians that do not believe the exact doctrine you do.

 

You talk about @kennewickman not being able to have a civilized conversation and then in the same post tell him to sit down and shut up. Yeah, real civilized of you.  

First off god had sins that he hated and did not hate the sinner but the sin and that is the difference. Second before you confuse things again, I said that ONLY 10% was gay that has nothing to do with GAY RIGHTS. And lastly in every state where Gay marriage has been on the ballot it has failed. That includes California.

Go back reread your history before you make another mistake

 

http://www.factbites.com/topics/Jefferson-on-church-and-state

 

The Mythical "Wall of Separation": How a Misused Metaphor Changed Church–State Law, Policy, and ...

 

Board of Education (1947), the United States Supreme Court was asked to interpret the First Amendment's prohibition on laws "respecting an establishment of religion." "In the words of Jefferson," the justices famously declared, the First Amendment "was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State" "[that] must be kept high and impregnable.

 

Jefferson?s wall, as a matter of federalism, was erected between the national and state governments on matters pertaining to religion and not, more generally, between the church and all civil government.

 

Jefferson?s metaphor, sadly, has been used to silence the religious voice in the marketplace of ideas and, in a form of religious apartheid, to segregate faith communities behind a restrictive barrier.

http://www.afn.org/~govern/Christian_Nation.html

WAS THE UNITED STATES FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION?

Recently, many authors have debated whether or not the United States of America was founded as a Christian nation. I wish to provide a few historical quotes from our Founding Era that lend credence to the supposition that we indeed were founded as a Christian nation.

Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me. John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.

The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.

Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.

This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated:

"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".

In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'

It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.

It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.

When we read articles such as "What's God got to do with it?" (Primack, 5/4) and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" (Tager, 5/7) it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history.

Tex Browning

 

kennewickman said:

“The Separation of Church and State is a rock solid principle reiterated many times by none other than James Madison, the guy who wrote the 1st Amendment. He used the phrase repeatedly and validated its legitimacy, sadly it sounds like you have bought the standard Talibangelical nonsense and prattle that C/S Separation is an illegitimate idea.”

Keep it up you keep looking more and more the fool all the time by repeating lies that the Democrats want you to repeat.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h584.html

Quotes by Roger Williams.

Regarding Separation of Church and StateEnforced uniformity confounds civil and religious liberty and denies the principles of Christianity and civility. No man shall be required to worship or maintain a worship against his will.

 

http://www.factbites.com/topics/Jefferson-on-church-and-state

 

The Mythical "Wall of Separation": How a Misused Metaphor Changed Church–State Law, Policy, and ...

 

Board of Education (1947), the United States Supreme Court was asked to interpret the First Amendment's prohibition on laws "respecting an establishment of religion." "In the words of Jefferson," the justices famously declared, the First Amendment "was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State" "[that] must be kept high and impregnable.

 

Jefferson?s wall, as a matter of federalism, was erected between the national and state governments on matters pertaining to religion and not, more generally, between the church and all civil government.

 

Jefferson?s metaphor, sadly, has been used to silence the religious voice in the marketplace of ideas and, in a form of religious apartheid, to segregate faith communities behind a restrictive barrier.

www.heritage.org /Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/fp6.cfm   (4359 words)

Ironically, Madison's low profile stems in part from his close cooperation with Thomas Jefferson, the physically imposing Virginian, rightly regarded as a genius, who popularized the familiar metaphor of the "wall of separation between church and state." Jefferson's figure looms large over the historical record relating to church and state and has often obscured the perhaps more important contributions of Madison.

 

 

 @Mike57 The Separation of Church and State is a rock solid principle reiterated many times by none other than James Madison, the guy who wrote the 1st Amendment. He used the phrase repeatedly and validated its legitimacy, sadly it sounds like you have bought the standard Talibangelical nonsense and prattle that C/S Separation is an illegitimate idea. However, here is some reading for you, the words of Madison on the very topic. I would be interested in your reaction to the fact that Madison even though having Congressional chaplains or declaring a National Day of Prayer were unconstitutional.http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions64.html

@Mike57:  You are confusing religion with Christianity.  Yes there are many references to God in many places.  However, they do not indicate what point of view they are taking.  It could be the traditional Christian view of God (Nicene Creed), or it might just as easily be in the Jewish tradition.  Or how about the Jeffersonian point of view, the one most prevelant in our Declaration of Indepence.  In case you are a little rusty in your American history, Jefferson wrote that.

kennewickman said “Wow, I am still laughing at your assertion that this country was founded upon Christian principles.

Given that this country was founded upon a separation of Church and State,”

 

When stop laughing I suggest that you learn history. Show me where it is and where it comes from. Ikanow and reading your use of it I know you do not. “Given that this country was founded upon a separation of Church and State,”

 

Slavery has never been a Christian principle. Keep it up the more you write the more I know that you are writing without knowing what you are writing about

Establishment Clause says the “or free exercise thereof”. And with all of the founding fathers practicing and or acknowledging religious faith shows you lack of knowledge. Also the fact the church services in inside of the congressional hall for the first 50 plus years well. Then look at all of the memorials in Washington DC all have a reference to God, then I would say that you are wrong.

By the way read all of you citations before you post them. It also says this:

 “Although some government action implicating religion is permissible, and indeed unavoidable, it is not clear just how much the Establishment Clause tolerates. In the past, the Supreme Court has permitted religious invocations to open legislative session, government funding of bussing and textbooks for private religious schools, and efforts by school districts to arrange schedules to accommodate students’ extra-curricular religious education programs.”

 @Mike57 Please educate yourself about the Establishment Clause. The law that protects your right to be a Christian is the same law that protects others rights to chose their own religious beliefs or to chose not to have any at all. This is not a Christian nation regardless of how much you want it to be, and you cannot force others to live by your religious doctrine. Clearly you are the one lacking knowledge about the history of this country. 

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause

 

 

@kennewickman @Mike57 The problem with this world is that everyone believes everything in the bible.  And everyone interprets it in their own way.  I also strongly disagree with what Mike57 says about 90% of people are straight.  If you look at the polls on anything that has to do with gay rights, it is always split 50/50.  I have a lot of friends who are gay, and this discrimination makes me sick.  Your GOD teaches you to not hate yet that is all anyone does.  Maybe he will forgive you of your sins, but I doubt that.

 @Mike57 Wow, I am still laughing at your assertion that this country was founded upon Christian principles. Given that this country was founded upon a separation of Church and State, this first nation on the planet to do this, and that our Constitution specifies that no religious test will be required to hold public office, I am having a hard time seeing exactly how we were founded as a Christian nation. Even worse for you is that the guy who pushed through the Virginia Plan, James Madison, was particularly set upon separating church from state. The only Christian principle that I know of that made it through the Constitutional Convention was slavery. 

memory9

You are right. Trying to have a civilized discussion with the likes of kennewickman is a waste of time. People of this type are looking for acceptance by the 90 % of the population that are straight. All they want is to be thought of as just like the other 90%. There is no other reason for them make this argument. This is a Christian nation and it was founded on Christian principals. To say otherwise is to show lack knowledge of history about this country. If gays want to be accepted by a organization like the Boy scouts (like others have said) then go start one. Otherwise shut up and sit down.

 @memory9 No, I completely support their right to be whatever they want to be. The real issue is that various levels of government have given the Boy Scouts special perks throughout the years. The BSA cannot have it both ways, being a private organization when it comes to setting their rules and then being a public group when it comes to money. Discriminatory groups are obviously odious but I would never seek to restrict what they do. I do seek to eliminate any public funding of these groups however. A country club can exclude women all day long for all I care. However, no local municipality should start giving them free water for their irrigation needs. Seems pretty simple to me.