Bill would make it easier for cities to change speed limits
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SEATTLE -- A new bill being discussed in the state legislature would make it easier for cities to change speed limits on their streets.
As it stands, cities have to jump through hoops and spend money on engineering studies before they can change speed limits on non-arterial roads.
At Seattle Pacific University, students say they have too many close calls with drivers not paying attention or going too fast on roads near campus.
"I mean, there have been 10 or 20 instances where we've almost gotten hit. We're always like, 'Go, don't go," said student Hailey Larson.
Many of the drivers who speed by are actually obeying the posted speed limit, but the city can't lower the limit to make the street safer without spending money on an engineering study.
Sen. Andy Billig wants to change that.
"And this bill would just say, if the city decides that they want to take the steps to make the streets safer by changing speed limits, then they can do that without the engineering study," he said.
Under the new proposal, cities could lower speed limits on their streets, but not below 20 miles per hour. State highway speed limits could be changed to 60 miles per hour, but no higher and only with the Secretary of Transportation's approval.
"It just makes it easy for cities to do what they need to do to make their communities safer," Billig said.
Some worry the new law would create the opportunity for speed traps, but Billig doesn't see that happening.
"Well, I don't think so," he said. "I think this will be used in very specific areas to make communities safer and healthier. And you know cities can do that right now if they wanted to."
As it stands, cities have to jump through hoops and spend money on engineering studies before they can change speed limits on non-arterial roads.
At Seattle Pacific University, students say they have too many close calls with drivers not paying attention or going too fast on roads near campus.
"I mean, there have been 10 or 20 instances where we've almost gotten hit. We're always like, 'Go, don't go," said student Hailey Larson.
Many of the drivers who speed by are actually obeying the posted speed limit, but the city can't lower the limit to make the street safer without spending money on an engineering study.
Sen. Andy Billig wants to change that.
"And this bill would just say, if the city decides that they want to take the steps to make the streets safer by changing speed limits, then they can do that without the engineering study," he said.
Under the new proposal, cities could lower speed limits on their streets, but not below 20 miles per hour. State highway speed limits could be changed to 60 miles per hour, but no higher and only with the Secretary of Transportation's approval.
"It just makes it easy for cities to do what they need to do to make their communities safer," Billig said.
Some worry the new law would create the opportunity for speed traps, but Billig doesn't see that happening.
"Well, I don't think so," he said. "I think this will be used in very specific areas to make communities safer and healthier. And you know cities can do that right now if they wanted to."
This bill is a pure money grab and must be rejected for several reasons.
1) The safest possible speed limit is the 85th percentile speed of free flowing traffic under good conditions, rounded to the nearest 5 mph interval. Finding this 85th percentile speed is a key part of the engineering studies and setting arbitrary limits without the engineering studies is simply bad engineering.
2) Posted limits set well above or below the 85th percentile speed of free flowing traffic under good conditions are NOT complied with by most drivers. A few will comply, most won't, and this increases the speed variance between the fastest and slowest groups which increases accident risks. If the 85th percentile speed is 40 mph in a road and you post 30 as the limit, it is quite likely the accident rate will go UP.
3) Cities desperate for revenue WILL set artificially low limits to create speed traps to increase revenue. This is not a maybe-will-happen item, this is a WILL happen abuse.
James C. Walker, National Motorists Association
While I oppose this bill because no speed should be set without impartial engineering studies that show the best and proper speed for that roadway, I have to shake my head at some of the rationalizing some of the posters seem to use to justify irresponsible and often dangerous operation of a vehicle, simply because it is too inconvenient to drive at the posted speed.
I'll ask each of you three questions:
If you had young children walking along a residential street with no sidewalk on a rainy day, would YOU tolerate someone driving a vehicle towards them at 35 or 40 MPH?
If that person was unable to stop in time if one of the kids carelessly walked into the road, and was hit and seriously injured, perhaps killed, would you simply forgive the driver and not be punished?
Would you accept this kind of carelessness if it involved carrying a gun?
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The problem is not the speed, it is the drivers who violate the speed limit.
Bull. It would be used for speed traps too. Revenue.
"Under the new proposal, cities could lower speed limits on their streets, but not below 20 miles per hour. "
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Just watch. Now EVERY street will be posted at 20 MPH.
Another prime example of not addressing the problem. Let's slow everyone down due to the few idiots that attempt to text, talk on the phone and do other things besides operate a motor vehicle properly. It seems that we have to put laws in place, because people are violating other established laws that we can't enforce, so we make more nuisance laws that we also can't enforce.
They should put speed limiters on all personal motor vehicles so that they can't go faster than 20 mph..
Future automobiles should be limited to a maximum of 20 horsepower too.
@m9078jk3, that would solve all the problems of fuel economy, urban sprawl, air line profits, the need for road repair........and I"m sure the list goes on.......Sarcasim......
Lower the speed limits. Put cops there. Raise revenue.
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Does anyone remember when seat belts were secondary offenses? That was the excuse they used to pass the law. Now, it's a revenue generator.
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How about talking on cell phones? That was put into law as a secondary offense. Then zap, primary offense, revenue generator.
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I'm not saying that the cell phone law is a bad law. I'm just saying that government gets their foot in the door, and then completely takes advantage of the citizens and their wallets. Let's just leave speed limit laws the way they are. At least, the set speeds aren't arbitrary, and prone to abuse by officials.
For a very brief moment I thought that this would let cities *raise* their speed limits in areas where it's obviously too slow. I should have known better. There's quite a few places on my way to work where the speed limit is 25 mph and it's almost impossible to drive that slow without holding your foot on the brake. I suppose this means that more of my commute may soon be 25 mph....
I can appreciate wanting to slow people down, especially in residential areas, but it would probably be less expensive and simpler to just install speed bumps or something. People who speed will continue to do so no matter what the sign says. They already go down our street at 40 MPH or so. A lower speed sign isn't going to change that.
 @chuckh0308 ...or perhaps auto-mated spike strips that would pop-up for a fraction of a second flattening all the tires if you're 20 mph above?
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Yes, by all means, let's get rid of the engineering studies so that cities can arbitrarily lower or raise speed limits at whim. Give me a break. If you cannot show a justification for the speed change, then you don't get to change the speed! This is lunacy at its finest!
This is an unnecessary waste of time. Â They should have to do some sort of study before being able to consider reducing speed limits.
 @Paperboy Are you willing to pay inflated taxes for these "studies"?
Just a way for cities to setup more speed traps like the school-zone cameras that will issue a ticket for going 21mph (best to go about 10-15 just to be certain. Particularly if a bus is behind you....)
When I was with WSDOT we ran a speed study in an area at the request of the people in the neighborhood who were upset about all the speeders on their residential street.
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We had 8 people with radar recording the speeds of cars, and noting the license number just as a reference to get the zip code of the car's owner.
We were there for 4 hours, during the afternoon on a weekday, and when we tallied the survey we determined that over 70% of the drivers were local to that stretch of road...
 @OrcasThunder Sounds like a reason to raise the speed limit. ;)
 @Wabbit Sure - it would be easier to simply raise the limit than to expect the self-centered scofflaws to slow down and drive legally.
Easier, and a really stupid way to solve the problem.
You know, I see a lot of comments from people I know are on the right, the same ones who cry about the loss of "responsibility" in this country, about people who just want to take take take, never doing what they should and not caring how their actions impact and cost others. And many of those same right wing people are the very same ones p!ssing and moaning about how they are being punished by all the speed and red-light cameras and speed limits in general. What becomes painfully obvious is that they really don't CARE how it affects others, as long as THEY aren't inconvenienced or impeded in any way. Basically, they are just like selfish spoiled children who's parents never taught them the meaning of living in a society where they have the same rights - and responsibilities - as anyone else.
 @Wabbit "I can control my vehicle just fine."
Does that mean that you follow the legal speed limit?
That's all that counts.
 @OrcasThunder I can control my vehicle just fine. I do however have a brain and can see that the current speed limits in certain areas are unreasonably low, and feel they should be raised. I prefer to use the cruise control because it is easy for anybody to teeter a few mph above/below the speed limit. Cops are well aware of these "speed traps" and are able to catch so many people because the speed limits are below what one would expect. I've never been ticketed in any of these places, but I do see a lot of people pulled over on my daily commute, and feel that these low limits are just a money grab.
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At one time in this country it was legal to own another human being; just because it was the law doesn't mean it was right. You can look throughout history and find many examples of unjust laws/regulations.
 @Wabbit "Well, speeding is a relative term"
You are rationalizing your inability to control your vehicle in a safe manner.
Would you accept that kind of thinking from a gun owner?
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@Wabbit @OrcasThunder Arizona is pulling out their Red Light Camera's and Speed Camera's. They are actually losing money with them.
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Once the violation occurs, they use certified mail ($10) that requires a signature as to prove the violation was issued to the owner of the vehicle that commited the violation. It didn't take long for everyone to figure out that you don't go to the Post Office to pick up that document. Now they must pay a person to personally serve you the violation ($75). We are a gated community, secured condo's and apartments. This person only suceeds about 30% of the time. Now that the owner has been served, they claim it wasn't them driving the vehicle. The municipal must now prove who the driver was at the time of the violation. There is no revenue left in the $124 violation. AND the company that owns the equipment gets 50% of the revenue......whether the municipal collects or doesn't collect, therefore they lose money.
 @OrcasThunder Well, speeding is a relative term. Some people consider speeding to be going 18 mph in a street that's more than capable of allowing cars to safely go 30 mph. There's quite a few areas around my home where the speed limit is unreasonably low; f.e. there's no schools, very visible, wide lanes. Everybody either rides their brakes in the area or goes above the 25 mph limits. I can't even set my cruise control that low in general...
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As far as the red-light cameras go; what they usually don't tell you is that 90% of the tickets go to folks who are making right turns without fully stopping. They normally sell the system to residents as a system that'll ticket folks who bolt through a red light across traffic. I found out the hard way that if you do not make a complete stop on red, then you'll soon be $124 poorer.
Ohhh, Mayor McSchwinn would love this. All Seattle downtown streets would be at a max 10mph or something that would limit speeds to bicycles only.
 @Doloresdecabeza Don't worry about it.In the next couple of decades motor vehicle fuels will be so exorbitantly costly due to diminished fuel supplies/higher demand (post peak oil,more Asian  especially Chinese and India motorists) ,probably a added carbon tax,other taxes that only those with great income and the wealthy will be able to afford to drive personal motor vehicles and also the prices on new electric cars will be more costly in the future as well.In addition there will likely be vastly higher vehicle registration fees for the few and likely a mileage tax too as well as higher tolling fees.
You do have alternative choices of transportation though or work,travel and shop closer to where you live.
 @Doloresdecabeza even 20mph would be faster than many of those traffic blockers.
"Some worry the new law would create the opportunity for speed traps, but Billig doesn't see that happening."
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He obviously doesn't pass through Lynnwood.
 @Glassman Or Brier. Or Lake Stevens.
Clearly the folks that are speeding now and making for the so called unsafe and unhealthy community, will do so regardless of what the speed limit is. So lets see who will really benefit? Oh wait I know, the cities will get more revenue from the tickets. City of Auburn already lowered speed limits claiming that higher speeds are destroying roads. If you have ever driven West Valley Hwy, it is ridiculous to set the speed limit at 30 and it is actually hard to go that slow. I do notice an increase of Auburn PD. It's all about the revenue folks.
 @Alert Eagle "will do so regardless of what the speed limit is"
That's true - and it should be obvious that the solution is to get people to slow down. And if that takes speed traps, so what? IF you follow the speed limit, why should the cop sitting there bother you?
As to being "actually hard to go that slow", why? Is your car idling to fast? See a mechanic and get it tuned...you will save money on gas.Â
I live on a neighborhood street in Seattle, the limit is 25...and yet we have many drivers taking a shortcut and speeding through at up to 40 MPH...there is no excuse for that - they have an arterial they can stay on that will get them there faster, legally.Â
If they get a ticket in front of my house I'll be glad to take their picture...
 @OrcasThunder The point of my comment is, that I believe that municipalities are lowering speed limits in certain areas to raise revenue, it has little to do with safety. As far as portions of West Valley Hwy I am referring to, they are straight two lane areas going for 3 to 5 miles. Imagine trying to drive 35 on the freeway. I believe one of the criteria to setting a proper speed limit is to set it at a speed that is what 80% of folks would drive, without a speed limit. In other words what is comfortable. In fact driving too slow in some instances can be unsafe. 30 MPH on a straight 5 mile stretch of Hwy is uncomfortably slow.
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 @Sydthepiper  @Alert Eagle "We'll just make every road in the State 10 mph."
What would be the rational for that?
I don't favor this bill - it ignores good engineering practice, and does not address the real problem, people who speed.
Why is that very basic fact so hard for you people to understand? It's not the speed limit, it's the people who don't follow the speed limit, who think the limit only applies to everyone else.
Cars don't speed, people do.
Maybe we need to go back to the point system where every speeding or other moving violation counts against your being able to renew your license without a refresher course in the rules of the road.
 @OrcasThunder  @Sydthepiper  @Alert Eagle OK Orc, you win.
We'll just make every road in the State 10 mph.
No more deaths...we'll all be safe now.
Thank you for showing me the light...was blind, but now can see.
 @Sydthepiper  @Alert Eagle "to illogical, unreasonable, ridiculous, absurd and preposterous levels, one may be less tempted to speed."
How about simply follow the law?
Cars do not speed, the people driving them do.
If these were guns we were talking about, you would insist that the gun is "just a tool"...well, what do you think a car is? It is a tool, and it does what the driver instructs it to.
If you want to hold those who use a gun to violate the law responsible, you should also want to hold those who use vehicles to violate the law responsible...but no, since YOU are the driver it's "not the same"...but it is the same. bad gun people kill people, and bad drivers kill people.
 @Sydthepiper  @Alert Eagle "But, being the former D-Dtate worker you are, and knowing you support this bill,"
And where did I state that I SUPPORT this bill?
I DON'T!
Ignoring proper engineering is the worse way to go on this - want to reduce speeding, enforce the laws against speeding.
It's really that simple.
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 @Alert Eagle "I'll try one more time."
Oh, I'm sure you will keep trying for much longer than that...<G>
Signal timing is an engineering application, it's easy to change it - make it a law that the timing should follow engineering standards.
Rear end collisions are completely a factor of bad driving habits. That applies regardless of the reason for the leading vehicle coming to a stop - be it a yellow light or a child running out into the street. The fact is, if you are following a vehicle, you are REQUIRED to maintain a safe distance between them and you that will allow t=you to stop safely.
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A motor vehicle does not speed, run red lights, cause accidents...the person driving it does.
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It's really very simple, follow the laws of driving and you won't break any.
 @OrcasThunder  @Alert Eagle ...and if municipalities did not lower speed limits by 20 to 30 mph on major roadways..i.e.-(see below),
to illogical, unreasonable, ridiculous, absurd and preposterous levels, one may be less tempted to speed.
But, being the former D-Dtate worker you are, and knowing you support this bill, and any other that takes money from citizens and puts it into the hands of corrupted officials, you can not see the logic of the majority of posters on this topic.
 @OrcasThunder I'll try one more time. Before red light cameras the yellow lights were 4 to 5 seconds, after red light cameras 3 seconds. Rear end collision went up 27%. Revenue increased 48%. Government will eventually pass enough laws to make criminals out of all of us. This proposal makes it easier for cities to lower speed limits and raise revenue, it is that simple in my opinion.Government long ago abandoned the idea of working for the people, it has been working to benefit itself and I approach every new law with great apprehension and concern.
 @Alert Eagle "The point of my comment is, that I believe that municipalities are lowering speed limits in certain areas to raise revenue"
And, if you stop speeding they won't get it from you.
This is basically just a way for local PDs to make speedtraps for $$$....
 @NW-Economist Surely an economist is good with numbers. So do the math. Say you drove the 405 from Renton to Bothell at 3am(no traffic, wide open). Its roughly 30 miles and you drove it at 60mph. How long would it take you to reach Bothell? Now that is a stress-free, no worries drive doing the speed limit. Now how long will it take you to drive the same stretch at 70mph with added stress worrying about WSP and a speeding ticket? My point is, this is a 30 mile stretch with no lights, stop signs and traffic. Now if you're speeding through city streets and you actually think you are going to get somewhere sooner by doing so than you're a fool and fools think of police looking for speeders is a speed trap. We should call them fool traps. Now tell me how many minutes did you save on that 30 mile commute going 10mph over the speed limit?
 @NW-Economist You are so correct this time. In Auburn, the Mayor, Mr. Peter Lewis did just that. One example is the West Valley HIGHWAY.  The previous limit was 50 mph, now it is 30 mph.
Petulant Lewis did this out of spite for residents not raising taxes on themselves.
Petulant Lewis claims it is about safety, and road maintenance, but he was just angry about his tax plan not being approved. (He & Gregoir have a lot in common)
So, the speed trap is there. A wide open arterial called a Highway that has been for decades....two lanes each direction with a center turn lane....limited lights, couple hundred business with a stranglehold hold for moving product & serving customers because of a very UNREASONABLE UNNEEDED lowering of a speed limit.
In other words, the new bill is a very BAD idea.
 @Sydthepiper On the West Valley Highway? In Auburn? Man, that makes absolutely no sense!