Community gathers for gay marriage forum
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SEATTLE -- In February, Gov. Chris Gregoire signed into law a bill making Washington the seventh state to allow same sex marriage.
That law is headed back into the hands of voters this November in the form of the much-discussed Referendum-74, and on Tuesday the community gathered for a public debate on the issue.
The Seattle Channel hosted Tuesday's debate, and a host of people showed up to voice their opinions for and against the controversial issue.
"I hope the human side and the cost of inequality comes out," said Marian Stewart, who supports the referendum.
Others at the event were less enthusiastic.
"It's almost unimaginable to me that we could even be discussing the issue because it's so contrary to reason and just it's just unbelievable to me," said Loren Nelson.
The forum featured a panel made up of two R-74 supporters and two opponents, as well as a polling device in the audience that provided instant feedback.
"With an event like this, we have that live interactive piece to it, where people are realizing that their comments are going out not just to the Seattle area but potentially to the world," said Brian Callanan of the Seattle Channel.
The first poll was taken before the discussion even started. Of those in attendance, most were in favor of R-74, and a poll at the end of the night showed the same support.
If voters approve the referendum in November, the law will take effect December 6.
That law is headed back into the hands of voters this November in the form of the much-discussed Referendum-74, and on Tuesday the community gathered for a public debate on the issue.
The Seattle Channel hosted Tuesday's debate, and a host of people showed up to voice their opinions for and against the controversial issue.
"I hope the human side and the cost of inequality comes out," said Marian Stewart, who supports the referendum.
Others at the event were less enthusiastic.
"It's almost unimaginable to me that we could even be discussing the issue because it's so contrary to reason and just it's just unbelievable to me," said Loren Nelson.
The forum featured a panel made up of two R-74 supporters and two opponents, as well as a polling device in the audience that provided instant feedback.
"With an event like this, we have that live interactive piece to it, where people are realizing that their comments are going out not just to the Seattle area but potentially to the world," said Brian Callanan of the Seattle Channel.
The first poll was taken before the discussion even started. Of those in attendance, most were in favor of R-74, and a poll at the end of the night showed the same support.
If voters approve the referendum in November, the law will take effect December 6.
Same-sex couples already have the legal rights as married couples in Washington. Also, children do better when raised by a married mom and dad - Social science research indicates. Lower poverty rates, higher education achievement, better mental health, improved physical health, and increased general happiness. Redefining marriage can cause people to choose between faith action mission or upholding their religious beliefs. Parental rights are impacted as they cannot chose how their offspring are taught about marriage in public school. Businesses can be sued for just expressing support for traditional marriage - paraphrased from Preserve Marriage Washington.
Two men might each be a good father, but neither can be a mom. The ideal for children is the love of their own mom and dad. No same-sex couple can provide that.
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I believe as the Preserve Marriage Washington believes that "Same sex couples are entitled to respect and to live as they choose" I also agree with them when they say ",but there is no right to redefine marriage for all of society.
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 That homosexual "marriages" would make fine parents would have to be determined by years of experience. Experience that does not exist. What we do have is that male homosexual monogomy is a myth as noted earlier and Princeton papers about the effects of "Conflict and Instability for Young Children" (Fomby & Osborne, 2007)
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Fomby & Osborne, (2007), "The Relative Effects of Family Instability and Mother/Partner Conflict on Childrenâs Externalizing Behavior", Retrieved October, 16, 2012 from http://crcw.princeton.edu/workingpapers/WP08-07-FF.pdf
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Actually, I should not, in all good conscience as a bible reader, follower, be here to debate who gets what rights, I have opinions like everyone else however, I do not write, enforce or rule on the laws that govern the people, I do not vote, I do not do jury duty, and I find myself on a forum like this having the need to defend, so I guess this proves one thing, even people who read the bible are human too.
Look, everyone needs to respect the people on who they do love, why go against someone who is gay? Even though that everybody will say that everyone needs to follow the Bible. But what about the Bible? My real answer is that no body really follows the Bible anymore, nobody, and not even the straight married couples that do follow the Bible anyway. So why go against gay marriage? Please back off, stop disrespecting the american people on what they want in their life. If we keep on going against each other on gay marriage and straight marriage, then you will have to think about what would it be like if we aband gay marriage and straight marriage? And then will may want to allow gay marriage more than straight marriage instead.
 @Joe Haley How do you know nobody follows the bible anymore? that is kind of a bold statement, you don't know what EVERYBODY does, you see right there you yourself are assuming and making statements about how YOU know NOBODY follows the bible, and I think the dumbest thing you have said is BAN STRAIGHT MARRIAGE, what planet did you fall off of, man if I were a gay person I sure as hell wouldn't get you to be a spokesman on my behalf, and please don't go around in your cramped little world ASSUMING   (Ass-U-Me) (defination of the word assume) nobody reads or follows bible teaching, because you are dead wrong.
 @Joe Haley One more thing........OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES, EVERYONE HAS ONE.
 @Joe Haley CORRECTION:  (DEFINITION)
I would like to know why everytime a debate about gay marriage, equal rights for gay and lesbian couples etc. etc. etc. comes up, the gays jump on the bandwagon and say it is the religious fanatics who don't want them to have equal rights, people who read the Bible have just as much right as anyone of you to have an opinion, you think you have it bad? there has been religious persecution since the world began, how about slavery, equal rights for women, just to name 3 and if you say you read the Bible and believe in the scriptures, then tell me what they say about gay marriage, the Bible teaches many things, including love your neighbor, do not judge, least you be judged, but please don't just pick out a few scriptures and interpert them they way you want to, you have a right to believe what you want, and so do those of us who live our lives according to what the Bible says, personally, I do not give a leap if you want to marry each other or not, that is not up to me to judge what is right or wrong, I know what the Bible says is wrong, but nobody has the right to JUDGE, and that includes me, I have the RIGHT to live my life according to what the Bible says without being called a fanatic, religious nut, Bible pounder etc. Â nothing in this world is just & fair, people are discriminated against all the time, everyday, but you seem to blame people who read the Bible for all your woe's, now, do you feel that what I have just said here I had the right to say? weather you like how I said it or not? were you offended by it? I call that equal rights, you said what you wanted, I did the same, and so the debate continues.
@SJ - you need to pay a little more attention to what those on the 'approve gay marriage' side are saying instead of just automatically deciding that they won't allow you to think whatever way you want to.
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NO ONE on the pro gay rights side wants to force you to stop thinking or believing in whatever way you want to.
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What they/we want to stop is the unconstitutional use of laws to enforce a specific set of religious and/or moral beliefs.  No one set of religious or moral beliefs in inherently more important or 'more correct' than any other. They are just different.  My moral belief that gay is ok is no more accurate than your moral belief that gay is not ok (as is the reverse - yours is no more accurate than mine). Why? Because morals are allowed to be different between two people.
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They/we also want to stop the attacks by so-called religious people and the so-called 'morally superior' people on those who religiously or morally decide that gay is wrong. No more loudly proclaiming that 'gay is wrong' and 'gays are going to hell' and so on. No more forcing one set of religious/moral beliefs to be law just because they are your religion/morals.
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The problem is not 'those people who read the Bible'. The problem is those that misuse the Bible as a way to force others to behave in one specific manner.  Those that use the Bible to perpetuate bigotry and hatred.
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It's no longer morally right to use the Bible and Christianity to perpetuate racism like was done in decades past. No longer will any true Christian would tolerate the misuse of religion and the cherry picking and perverting of Bible verses to support racism.  In decades past, the perversion of the Bible and Christianity to support racism against Blacks was pervasive across much of this country. Why did that change?  Because we grew up as a nation and a society and realized just how wrong that was.
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Today, gays are asking for the same kind of a step forward in growth and maturity of Christianity so that they can also no longer be the subject of this kind of un-Christian like behavior by Christians. Â
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It's simple - Christians who have issues with gays having equal rights to them need to stop complaining about the splinter in the gay mans eye before they take care of the log in thier own.
 @FormerMarineSgt Why do I need to pay more attention to what the approve gay marriage side is saying? maybe you need to pay more attention to what I just said, the issue here from my point of view is not weather gays should marry or not, my issue is why is religion always an issue when it comes to gay issues? leave religion & the Bible out of this STATE issue, it is very plain you do not live by what the Bible teaches, and only throw out a scripture when it suits you.
 @FormerMarineSgt And Please...I don't want to hear again...ALL religions are the same, they ARE NOT, people who read the Bible, and try and live by what it says, DO NOT, again DO NOT spew hate and bigotery for what others choose to do and how they choose to live their life, that is NOT how a TRUE CHRISTIAN is taught to be, we are taught to love one another not to judge people who think differently, act differently, live differently and if everyone lived by that one thing, "Love for your fellow human" we would not have to be here debating this issue.
 @FormerMarineSgt Oh ok, I see you have all the answers on the subject, ok, you want to quote scripture? ok lets give it a whirl, the scripture you quoted, Luke 6: 42 by the way, incase you forgot, is just exactally what I'm talking about, you pick out one scripture and throw it into the conversation and twist it somehow to reflect what was not being said, I DID NOT say I hated gays, as a matter of fact I have some gay friends, I don't like the lifestyle they live, but as I said before, I'M NOT THE JUDGE, what I hate is telling me because I choose to live by what the Bible says make me hate gay people, not so, and you just proved my point, by the scripture you threw out there, you took that scripture "Hyprocrit, first extract that rafter from your own eye, before you attempt to extract the straw from your brothers eye" "again Luke 6:42", what does that mean to you? I take it to mean I'm judging someone, I told you before I DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE, and again, It does not matter to me if gays want to marry, it is not my call as to who should marry who, I believe in equal rights weather you are gay or straight, how many times must I say it? it is not up to me how other people live their lives, I have enough to worry about taking care of myself, what I said was, just because I read the Bible does not mean I have to be put on a chopping block because of what I believe...got it? now, you like to quote the Bible, ok how do you interpert what the Bible says at Leviticus 18:22, assuming you really do read the Bible. BTW, I don not have a rafter in my eye, I see very clearly...Do you?
We must put a stop to gay marriage. Â It's simple and that's that. Â The gays don't have the sense to see what is against nature. Â Now not all people have discernment. Â We have criminals who steal and don't see anything wrong with it. But gays see nothing wrong with how gay marriage and activisism drags down society. Â There is an agenda here, Â we all know it.Â
 @HullenbeckCowl I'm sorry, I have missed the "agenda, we all know it".  Please enlighten me to the agenda.   "Against nature"?  What clinical proof can you support with this statement?  I searched all the annals (you might need to look that word up so as not to confuse the conversation) in current modern medicine publications but was unable to find anything to support an argument for or against homosexuality being "against nature".  Being that you undoubtedly have copious amounts of "discernment", I'm wondering if you somehow think that by allowing gay marriage you will suddenly find yourself wanting to look at or touch penises?  What is really the argument?  If you don't want gay marriage, don't get one.  Quit raising gay children.  For god sakes, get rid of any rainbow paraphernalia you can find. This will surely end the conversation.  Have a great day.
 @tiredofyourBS Well maybe instead of searching medical publications, you should search the # 1 book in the world and see what it says about homosexuality and  what "Against Nature" really means.
 @SJ  @tiredofyourBS I've tried to believe in unicorns, leprechauns and the tooth fairy but there just isn't proof to support it.  I don't apologize for needing facts and science to form my beliefs, just as you don't need to defend the fairy tale you call the bible.  To each his own.  That is the core of this argument. Â
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They drag down society because they aren't given equal rights, chief. Get with the program.
We haven't certain laws to protect what is moral and right. We can argue all day long about what is moral and right but bottom line this country isn't a free for all land where we can all just do whatever we want no matter who it offends. We have many laws on the books that I think make little sense. Alcohol laws on Sunday comes to mind since 80% of us aren't that religious to begin with. We also have laws that a man can't marry his sister, and a man can't have more than one wife. Why? I mean according to the gay rights activists we are all entitled to do whatever makes us happy as long as we are all consenting adults? So why is incest wrong or marrying multiple wives wrong but gay marriage isn't? Nobody from the left has ever been able to give me a clear answer on that. I'm waiting...
 @FremontTroll 1967The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously overturns Pace v. Alabama (1883), ruling in Loving v. Virginia that state bans on interracial marriage violate the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
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I'm sure you must be aware of some of the equal rights legislation that has been passed over the last 60 years. Â Lest you be confused, this is a clearly defined equal rights issue. This argument is just about over. Â Eventually, it will pass here. Â You will need to troll yourself on over to some other seemingly significant argument. Â Please enjoy this one while it lasts. I do so enjoy reading your posts. Â I'm guessing that growing up, you were picked on and bullied and now have the opportunity via a faceless computer to fight back. Â You go Troll. Â Get em. Â Hope this makes you feel better about yourself. Â Have a great day.
 @FremontTroll For me it isn't about whether it is right or wrong. It is about granting a significant percentage of our population the same privilege that straight people have.Â
 @Hountoof "Privilege" do you think straight people  have more privileges than gay people?  one important thing you are missing here, in throwing out the Loving v Virginia ban, that says INTERRACIAL not HOMOSEXUAL, total different ballgame there my friend, and you sir/madam just proved by your spiteful/hate filled words, to FremontTroll, his opinion does not count, that you are right, he has no right voicing his opinion, to belittle someone  because they do not agree with you is just not the way any intelligent, caring, person talks to another., do you know for fact that he was picked on and bullied growing up? and I'm reasonably sure he has a face, just as I'm reasonably sure you do, as you type behind your computer, as we are ALL doing here.
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I hope your comments make you feel better about yourself, and you have a nice day also.
 @Olivia Where you live may be entirely different from my neighborhood. I was simply answering the question "do you think straight people have more privileges than gays?" What you say you have seen gives me hope for the future. But it is not the way I feel I am allowed to live. We have been surprised by the non-reaction sometimes we get when we know we are indicating to people that we are a couple. Other times, we end up leaving on our own, out of fear. Do straight people have that fear when they portray themselves as a couple? I don't think so. I could even throw out another privilege we don't have that straight couples have--job security. It doesn't matter whether you work for a large corporation, or a small mom and pop business--there is ALWAYS the chance that someone who finds out we are lesbians will be able to legally or not, figure out how to get rid of either one of us. I realize that SJ was defending someone who had been attacked with some pretty nasty comments. But the deal is, both my partner and I are Christians too, and we definitely know the difficulties that brings to our lives--both sides can hate us at any given moment. Like I said, I was simply asnwering a question, and I do not feel that you know anything at all about what we encounter on a daily basis. If you were defending SJ, fine, I have no problem with that. And many of your statements I agree with, but you and I both know that often times, just because something is illegal (lewd behavior), or discrimination, does not mean that it doens't continue happening, and there are definitely double standards when it comes to the behavior of gays vs the behavior of straight folks.
 @chickysgirl I have witnessed many gay couples kissing and hugging and holding hands in public places, so your argument there doesn't hold up, as for the peck on the cheek, sorry, they were doing more than that, in my opinion it is not right for ANYONE gay or straight to act like dogs in heat in public, as to your comment about Straight teen-agers practally procreating in public, lewd conduct by anyone in a public setting is disgusting, and I might add AGAINST THE LAW, have you personally witnessed such behavior? but when you say you and your partner don't dare even hold hands in public, that is not even an issue, you may have encountered some people who judge that based on both being female, however, have YOU personally ever been ask to leave a public place outside of the gay community for holding hands with another female? I have held hands with women, never got a second look, you don't have to prove anything to me, and I think SJ, was just comparing gays and bible readers perhaps being in a somewhat same type of setting, in other words there is enough gay bashing and bible bashing to go around, it's not right on either side, we have the right to be respected and treated the same no matter if we are gay, straight, read the bible or not.
@SJ You asked the question--"do you think straight people  have more privileges than gay people?" The answer is YES, They are afforded certain privileges I do not have, as well as many legal rights through marriage I do not have. Have you ever heard about the lesbian couple that got kicked out of a baseball stadium for a 'quick peck on the cheek"? That's a privilege that straight people have, they can practically have sex in public without getting kicked out of a public place.  My partner and I do not dare hold hands in public--out of fear of being kicked out of whatever public place we are in. But again, straight teenagers can practically procreate in public without anyone raising an eyebrow. And as far as the legal issues, I know you have heard the incidents of gay couples who, when one dies, cannot even adhere to the wishes of the other because family members who never cared for them when they were alive, can swoop in and take away homes, property, burial rights, etc. And when there are children involved in a gay family, (it really is a family, no matter what anyone says) it can be catastropic if one of the parents dies, people the child never even knew can end up with custody of them, because we don't have the same protections you do as a straight person. So,the answer to your question is an absolute YES.
 @FremontTroll You apparently have never really talked to a 'gay rights activist'--I can tell you from personal knowledge that most gays and lesbians who are interested in marriage do not believe in harming others.  My belief is, and I think  the laws reflect this--it is illegal to have sex with children or animals because they cannot give 'consent'. In the case of incest, that is also often the case--one person has the power to make another, weaker or younger person do something that they cannot consent to. That is why it is illegal. I cannot give you a reason for why multiple 'wives' is illegal, except that in my opinion, who would really want to have the legal obligation to take care of more than one at a time? Because, along with the benefits given married couples,  marriage does have certain obligations, something most people these days forget. But, as I mentioned in another post--this isn't about incest, or multiple wives (or husbands, should that be your preference). It is about giving gays and lesbians the exact same rights that heterosexuals currently have to marry the person they love and to receive certain legal benefits and protections under the law through that marriage. And, since the primary objection to same sex marriages comes from those who claim it is against 'God's will', and you stated you think 80 percent of us 'aren't that religious',  it appears you are making the statement that religion shouldn't be a factor--I also believe that. And finally, you said that this 'country isn't a free for all land where we can do whatever we want no matter who it offends." I get offended everyday by the behavior of people--but it doesn't mean I feel the need to legally prevent them from doing whatever it is that offends me. I am personally offended by teens who behave like animals in heat in public. I am offended by foul language that comes out of people's mouth every day in casual conversation, I am offended by rude people--and the list goes on. But I'm smart enough to know that I am not being forced by them to behave in the same manner, so I go on about my life. And as long as they don't behave badly in public, I cannot for the life of me, understand why two people who love each other would offend anyone.Â
 @chickysgirl You are way off topic. If you would learn to read I never mentioned incest with children or sex with animals. You are double-talking and not answering my question. Gays marrying is no different than a man marrying several women. If you want to discuss the rights of gays then let's not skirt around the issue of polygamy or incest. I find it hypocritical that you find that wrong but two men marrying is OK. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to devalue marriage and make a joke of it then let's open up marriage to anyone under any circumstances. Fair is fair. Â
 @FremontTroll Ok, here is where you need to learn better reading comprehension. I said I could not tell you why 'multiple wives' are illegal. I honestly don't know why, I only gave conjecture as to why I wouldn't want more than one spouse. So again, you call me a hypocrite without bothering to understand my point of view. Incest is wrong in my opinion, mainly because, for one thing it is illegal, but secondly, I see it ocurring as one powerful person taking advantage of a person who more than likely cannot consent and that for me is wrong. But either way, both of those things are CURRENTLY ILLEGAL. Like I said before, if you want those laws  to change--go for it. Gays and lesbians have fought the fight to make marriage EQUAL for all, gay or straight,  within the current parameters of the law, ie meeting the legal age of consent, not being blood relatives, etc. And stop with the 'sanctity of marriage' argument--since straight people have been the only ones allowed to legally marry--they are the ones making a mockery of marriage. Divorce, 'open marriages', three, four, five marriages by the same person, spousal abuse, extra-marital affairs, that's what makes a mockery of marriage--and that's not what I want. I want the legal right to marry the person I love and have spent 12 years with, the person I intend to live with for the rest of my life, the person I want to take care of, to be able to visit in the hospital, to provide for, exactly the same benefits and rights you have as a straight person who might get married. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
@FremontTroll @chickysgirl == Hey troll - drop the red herring about polygamy (for you I'll tell you what that means - marrying more than one person).
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If you want polygamy, GO DO THE HARD WORK TO GET IT LEGALIZED.
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Otherwise, it's got nothing to do with gay marriage.  Gay's aren't saying that they are fixing the entire world, they are fixing one issue.Â
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If you've got a way to fix the world all in one action - bring it forward. We could all benefit from it. Until then, go somewhere else with this false arguement where you try to tie polygamy to gay marriage.
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And as chicky's girl mentioned, incest and bestiality have as much to do with gay marriage as polygamy does - which is NOTHING.
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I'm suprised you didn't bring up child marriage too... It's another grand red herring that comes up.
 @FremontTroll Gay's marrying is no different than a man marrying several women? that is totally different, for one, a MAN that marries several WOMEN are not of the same sex, bad example, but I understand the gist of what you are saying. EQUAL RIGHTS weather a man wants to marry 25 women, or people of the same sex want to marry each other, "Operative word here EQUALITY"
I find the whole reasoning being used by those in opposition to be so very interesting. On the one hand, so many declare the need for less governement intervention into the lives of Americans, yet continue to claim that government needs to declare that only heterosexuals have the 'special right' to marry the person they love. Many use the 'they can't reproduce' argument, as if to say that is really a factor in heterosexual marriages--which we all know is not a requirement to get married. They claim it will harm families, yet cannot seem to comprehend that most gays and lexbians are part of a 'family' which can truly be harmed by the inability to be protected with the legal rights given married couples, as opposed to the imaginary harm that might befall 'straight' famlies.  But the weakest argument is the one that says 'why can't you just live with domestic partnership and leave marriage to heterosexuals", as if that somehow is not somehow an argument 'contrary to reason". I would most definitely agree with those in opposition, if the law stated that everyone must marry someone of the same sex, but you know what--it doesn't. And to those who say we already have the right to marry--someone of the opposite sex, I may just have to write to my legislators and ask that maybe the law should be changed to 'force' everyone to marry someone of the same sex. That way we would truly all have the same right to marry. The entire discussion is just a little unbelieveable to me too.Â
 @chickysgirl So using you logic I should be able to marry my sister or have multiple wives then? After all we are all consenting adults? Why can't that be legal then??
 @FremontTroll Currently the issue is whether or not same sex marriages should be legalized and has nothing with do with you and your sister or your desire for multiple wives. I was being facetious in several of my comments, sorry you missed that aspect of what I wrote.  If you want to marry your sister, you need to go through the same process of fighting for the right to do so. Good luck with that.
@FremontTroll @chickysgirl - Troll, dude, you already lost. Stop trying to twist this into absurdo-land arguements.
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The reasons you mention ARE NOT LEGAL BLOCKADES THAT PREVENT MARRIAGE. They are purely economic and other reasons. This does not make them unimportant reasons, but unlike the anti-gay rights and anti-gay marriage laws, they aren't legalized bigotry and legalized ways to prevent a specific otherwise legal act.
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And what's even more hilarious is that your example could just as easily be a gay couple in the exact same situation - but then I think your own bias would prevent you from seeing the irony of your own anti-gay marriage arguements.
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Your arguements are 100% 'your morals vs someone else's morals' and American law is not written to meet 'your morals', it's written to be based on legal and constitutional rights. A gay person's legal and constitutional rights are no different than yours - therefore you cannot legally or constitutionally block them from excersizing those rights, which include gay marriage.
 @chickysgirl You are very misinformed. There are many people that cannot marry. I'm not going to get into all the reasons but their reasons are legit and have nothing to do with law. I will give you one example but there are far more. I have a friend that has a life threatening illness. He no longer can work. If he marries his girlfriend he will lose the very small benefits that he gets every month and will no longer be able to support himself. She cannot take care of both of them on her small income but she makes too much to qualify for any assistance. He needs medical insurance but cannot get it (like a gay can) without marrying her. If he chooses to marry her she would have to quit her job and they would both end up homeless just to be able to get assistance. There are many, many couples in this situation. Please stop arguing about what you don't know. The hardships of straight couples are far greater than any gay couple that wants to make a mockery of marriage.Â
 @FremontTroll What prevents a heterosexual couple from marrying? Nothing. If you have someone in your family who can't, it is because for whatever reason, they do not meet the requirements as set out by the law. There is absolutely nothing equal to marriage in the domestic partnership law. The ONLY reason domestic partnership even exists is because many heterosexuals do not wish to allow us to have the same rights they have. Any thinking person should be able to understand that. If you want to see it as special rights, then you are simply proving that you have no argument against same-sex marriage except that you don't like the idea and choose to discrimiinate against gay and lesbian couples. And the only word that fits that kind of thinking is pure and simple bigotry.
 @chickysgirl That will never happen and we know why and you avoided my question completely just like I knew you would. I'll even take the less extreme view. There are many heterosexual couples that cannot marry for one reason or another. I have someone in my family that can't. Why can't they get the same special "domestic partnership"rights that gays do? Over and over again the gay and lesbian community want special rights, not equal rights. Only if it benefits them are they concerned about it. Â
"It's almost unimaginable to me that we could even be discussing the issue because it's so contrary to reason and just it's just unbelievable to me," said Loren Nelson.
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So your logic is that you do not understand it hence you must oppose it? Â Sad.
@unobtanium  So no one is allowed a personal opinion unless it agrees with yours. Nice logic.
 @Mej47 We aren't talking about "opinions". We are talking about people being denied the right to marry. Â
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Who do these nutcases think they are claiming superiority and trying to deny others happiness? Â
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 @FremontTroll  @skcusomok  @Andrew Bush  @Mej47
 I'm sure this has been pointed out to you before, but it bears repeating.
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Marrying the person of your choice is a right. It was declared so by the SCOTUS in Loving v. Virginia. Denying gay and lesbian couples that right is a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that all citizens are entitled to equal treatment under the law. Nowhere in the EPC or anywhere else in the Constitution is there a little asterisk with the words "except the gays, because they're icky" next to it.Â
 @FremontTroll  @skcusomok  @Andrew Bush  @Mej47 Many people, particularly those living in western democracies, believe in the concept that human beings possess inalienable rights. The Bill of Rights seem to be what James Madison felt are our most relevant, God-given rights. The idea that rights can be granted to anyone by a written law was famously called "a perversion of terms" by Thomas Paine. He seemed to believe that legal rights are merely privileges due to the fact that they can be taken away. Natural rights are those that are not subject to the authority of any government. It doesn't seem like it is possible to determine which rights are inalienable due to their subjective nature.Â
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I guess my point is that I don't think you can say whether gay marriage is or is not a right of the people involved without making assumptions based on your beliefs. The fact that you seem to think that people shouldn't try to make laws that "fit their own wants and needs" is kind of perplexing to me. Isn't that one of the main reasons that we create laws. Why do you think we have laws that protect freedom of expression and the legal right to own private property?
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 @skcusomok  @Andrew Bush  @Mej47 Like it or not it is an opinion. You don't have a "right" to do anything. None of us do. When it all comes down to it life isn't always fair. I couldn't join the military  because of a medical condition that wouldn't have prevented me from doing my job. Is that fair? No. Am I going to spend my entire life whining about it? No. People don't get it. Not everyone is going to be able to do what they want to do 100% of the time. That's life. Last time I read the Constitution there was nothing in there about the right to marry. Bottom line, it's a moral issue. There are laws to protect what is right. Many people think gay marriage is wrong. It's their opinion and they're entitled to it. It all comes down to people wanting special rights. They feel entitled to change the laws to fit their own wants and needs. Get over it. You are not that special and we shouldn't be making up laws just for your lifestyle. What's worse? Denying someone the right to marry? Or calling anyone that disagrees with you a nutcase? The later proves how weak minded you are.
 @Andrew Bush  @Mej47 God, you're obsessed. Do you just sit at home hitting "refresh" and wait for Komo to have a story on gay people so you can reply? You're gay. We get it. The fact that you call these people "nutcases" just shows that you are as ignorant and hateful as you claim they are. I'm even on your side, but you make it very hard to be.
 @Andrew Bush Who do you think you are to claim superiority and declare them "nutcases"?