Driver claims Federal Way traffic cameras are faulty
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FEDERAL WAY, Wash. -- As a dad to three young kids, Matthew Jarvis is hyper-sensitive about child safety; so it was surprise - if not frustration - that greeted him when he opened the mail in May to find a ticket for speeding through a school zone.
"I was pretty frustrated," Jarvis said, sitting at his kitchen counter, a stack of documents in front of him. "I felt like the city had known about this for a year and a half. They make a million dollars or more a year on these machines. Now it seems like they're just issuing tickets to make money."
The May ticket - for $210 - was Jarvis' second school zone speeding ticket in about a 16-month period; both times, he argued, the yellow flashing lights signifying the school zone in front of Panther Lake Elementary School weren't working and so he - among other drivers - had no idea they needed to slow down.
Further frustrating the father of three: The cameras in the school zone weren't pointed at the flashing lights, so there was no evidence they were working - or not - at the time both tickets were issued. Jarvis pleaded his case to police and a judge, and both times the tickets were dismissed.
"(The video with the ticket) shows you driving through and it shows your speed but it doesn't show you driving past the flashing yellow lights," Jarvis said. "It's a 35 miles per hour zone unless the lights are flashing. When I drove through the lights weren't flashing."
Jarvis said he pointed the issue out to Federal Way Police after the first ticket a year and a half ago. He now wonders how many other drivers have paid tickets unfairly or, perhaps, illegally.
"In all of those school zones where we placed cameras, the camera systems themselves and the yellow lights are hardwired together, so one doesn't operate without the other," said Commander Stan McCall with the Federal Way Police Department. "It's an extremely accurate system and we do monitor it accurately and when we find a problem, we'll fix it."
McCall said the cameras had been fixed over the summer to show the flashing yellow lights. Additional lights were also added so drivers can see them both when they approach the school zone and as they exit.
"When you have a lot of kids and a lot of cars - generally in the same area - there are inherent hazards," McCall added. "The interest is to provide a safe environment for the kids to come and go from school."
Jarvis, meantime, points out the city rakes in millions annually from the cameras, and wonders how many drivers are owed refunds because of a lack of evidence the school zones weren't in effect when they were ticketed.
"I think people are being ticket unfairly, but that's a problem that can be corrected. That's just a technological issue," he said. "I think they owe an apology - and a refund - to anyone who thinks they were issued a ticket incorrectly."
"I was pretty frustrated," Jarvis said, sitting at his kitchen counter, a stack of documents in front of him. "I felt like the city had known about this for a year and a half. They make a million dollars or more a year on these machines. Now it seems like they're just issuing tickets to make money."
The May ticket - for $210 - was Jarvis' second school zone speeding ticket in about a 16-month period; both times, he argued, the yellow flashing lights signifying the school zone in front of Panther Lake Elementary School weren't working and so he - among other drivers - had no idea they needed to slow down.
Further frustrating the father of three: The cameras in the school zone weren't pointed at the flashing lights, so there was no evidence they were working - or not - at the time both tickets were issued. Jarvis pleaded his case to police and a judge, and both times the tickets were dismissed.
"(The video with the ticket) shows you driving through and it shows your speed but it doesn't show you driving past the flashing yellow lights," Jarvis said. "It's a 35 miles per hour zone unless the lights are flashing. When I drove through the lights weren't flashing."
Jarvis said he pointed the issue out to Federal Way Police after the first ticket a year and a half ago. He now wonders how many other drivers have paid tickets unfairly or, perhaps, illegally.
"In all of those school zones where we placed cameras, the camera systems themselves and the yellow lights are hardwired together, so one doesn't operate without the other," said Commander Stan McCall with the Federal Way Police Department. "It's an extremely accurate system and we do monitor it accurately and when we find a problem, we'll fix it."
McCall said the cameras had been fixed over the summer to show the flashing yellow lights. Additional lights were also added so drivers can see them both when they approach the school zone and as they exit.
"When you have a lot of kids and a lot of cars - generally in the same area - there are inherent hazards," McCall added. "The interest is to provide a safe environment for the kids to come and go from school."
Jarvis, meantime, points out the city rakes in millions annually from the cameras, and wonders how many drivers are owed refunds because of a lack of evidence the school zones weren't in effect when they were ticketed.
"I think people are being ticket unfairly, but that's a problem that can be corrected. That's just a technological issue," he said. "I think they owe an apology - and a refund - to anyone who thinks they were issued a ticket incorrectly."
i got a ticket in the same place, when the lights were not flashing. good for you man, fighting back, get to cops off there butts and do there jobs. its sad we have to hace camras do the cops jobs. i hate those camras. i see them flash when iots not even a school day.
 @kadam12 Camras? Camera, have, I, their, it's, that's all the corrections your post, this time, needs. Your welcome!
@ScreenName @kadam12 If you're going to be a grammar Nazi, you should at least check your own grammar @ScreenName.  You're welcome!
Mr. Jarvis's experience was exactly like mine--I received a surprise citation in the mail with a video showing my vehicle and four others moving 3 mph under the posted speed limit 90 seconds before the end of the lunch hour.
There is no photograph of the yellow light. I was certain that the light was not blinking at that time (May 9) and took the morning off last week to drive to Federal Way for a mitigation hearing.
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Nearly half of the respondents in the courtroom had been cited for the yellow light violation in the Panther Lake zone. Three drivers stated that "someone else" had been driving the vehicle. Each driver was cautioned to be aware of the identity of the driver in the future, and each of these drivers had the charge dropped entirely. Other drivers stated that they were sure there was no yellow light but admitted driving the vehicle. Charges for all but one were reduced from $210 to $105.
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I admitted driving the vehicle shown in the video and testified that I had not seen a flashing light, that there were no pedestrians in the area, and that I was following the vehicle three car lengths ahead. The pro-tem judge reduced my fine from $210 to $125 -- not $105. I asked for 90-days grace to pay. Please keep on this story--I believe the third-party Cincinnati firm collecting these fees is profiting from faulty equipment.
Thanks everyone for the comments (I'm the guy in the story). Despite the City's claims, the system is NOT fixed. The City still does NOT have evidence that the yellow lights were flashing when you drove past them. Not that it matters, but both times that I was issued a ticket, there were no children anywhere (as confirmed by the video).
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The police officer claiming that there was no evidence to support my claims of a system malfunction is either being kept in the dark, or is lying. I have written documentation from the Chief of Police (Brian Wilson) dismissing my first ticket after his officers noticed the system had a malfunction. There has since been several cases with multiple witnesses confirming system malfunctions.
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After having fought this thing for two years, I think the only way to fix it is a major lawsuit (a ballot measure won't hold up in court). The problem is that someone will have to front a significant amount of legal fees against the City's virtually unlimited resources. In addition to having all of the tickets refunded, I want to see several people at City Hall charged with perjury/fraud, etc.
i recieved a ticket at the same spot ,i am apealing it i haven;t heard back its been about 2 mos .am i going to have to pay?
I can't believe this is a news. Â
First, this is out-sourcing police work to another state. How long before it goes to another country? If there are no officers already in these dangerous areas, why not? Why is this an out-of-state corporation? Money flowing away from our out-of-work people doesn't make sense, so for what reason? We have underemployed too. Do you know that ATS not only photographs, but sends the citations out? Then, y you send your fine back to Arizona or respond with a contested hearing statement that also must be sent back to Arizona? If, as I saw in court today, one loses a case, they must pay the fine, not to the court clerk or whomever, but then send that fine also to Arizona? What is really important about this school zone ticket mess is where does this money go? By RCW law, half of all monies collected are to go into a school crosswalk safety fund and can only be spent for school crosswalk safety. If that is the case, then FW schools should be awash in money and there should be hired crossing guards at all busy streets.  Kids shouldn't have to be out of school to be crossing guards, and teachers shouldn't have to take this on as yet another non-paid part of their job. See this RCW link. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.440
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Four Federal Way Schools should have access to this money immediately.
a portland city official got fired for taking money from the private company who sells the traffic violation cameras after he persuaded  the portland city council to buy and install traffic cameras.Â
I received a ticket in the mail for doing 27 in the 20 MPH zone at 12:23 on 06/01/12 by this Panther Lake School in Federal Way ($210.00 Fine), didn't remember seeing any lights flashing, decided to contest it and my court date was this morning, 2 people ahead of me contested the same thing and both had to pay the full fine, one was doing 33 and the video plainly showed her speeding up when changing lanes in the zone, the other guy knew the judge from their kids sports activities so they brought in a new judge to hear her case, he pleaded he didn't see the lights or they were not operating, the judge didn't care and he had to pay the whole fine. Then the original judge came back in and my name was called, I plead that I did not recall the lights or they were not operating, pointed out my driving record (spotless for 25 years), we all viewed the video and he pointed out that I was going a even speed as everyone else but still over the speed limit by 7 MPH, I countered with " where is the proof the lights were actually on and in proper working order?", he said there was no video equipment to capture the lights at the time of the alleged infraction but there ais now. He then dismissed the case.
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Totally agree!!! Federal Way cameras SUCK!!!!!.The one in front of Fred Meyers on 21st Ave SW will flash at every car even when its not during the school zone hours.I have repeatley argured with Lt..Norman on this.I sugguest every one stand up if you get one and fight it.
i agree. i live up the street and yes i too have had it flash on me. i have gone to court and tryed to have them take it away and all they do is lower it. thats bull. pull these carmas out. they cause more problems than good.
 @kadam12 Tried, not tryed.
Wait a second...why are we complaining about cameras? I thought government was bad and private industry was good. Cameras run by a private company? Heck, they should be on every single corner!
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Oh wait, there might be corruption going on? Impossible! Companies *never* do any wrong. Right?
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 @John Tits  @Ben Brooks Nice strawman. The average city government gets about 10% of the ticket collected, the other 90% goes to the PRIVATE firm that collects and does the enforcement.
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Law enforcement, even for non-criminal acts, by private enterprise is a very scary slippery slope that our founding fathers would object to in any form.
You can clearly see the flashing lights in the videos taken in auburn by the casino.
 If you have children in school, then you KNOW what time the school zone lights should be flashing; because they were not flashing, does not mean you should not slow down. Pretty lame excuse.
 @mustang sally Not really.  All schools and school zones do not have the same schedule.  It's not an excuse, it's the way the system is set-up to work, you can't punish someone who relies on a certain system when that very system is faulty.
@mustang sally -- Wrong. The posted speed limit IS the speed limit UNLESS otherwise posted. If, in a "school zone" the speed limit should be 20 MPH during certian hours, then it MUST be posted and, if it's only 20 MPH when lights are flashing, then the lights must be flashing. The government doesn't get it's cake and get to eat it too.Â
Sorry it looks like part of the comment did not come through. All of the school turn off flashing lights during the day.
@mustang sally Sorry, but your logic is not valid. I pass 2 schools on my commute. Both are off of major roadways with speeds of 45 miles per hour. There is another school that I occasionally pass that is on a smaller road and they also turn the flashing lights off in the middle of the school day.   So if I drove into a school zone with no flashing light I would not think any thing of it.
I was offered 24 hours in the King County Jail by a judge in the Seattle Municipal court downtown. Â I quickly handed over my food budget for the month.Â
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Months later I found out that it is illegal for a judge in municipal court to threaten jail time because they do not have the power to do this. Â
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I later found out that the judge records all conversations in his chambers but they also have the power to pause the recording during your conversation. Â
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The corruption never ends.Â
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 @Andrew Bush A municipal court judge can impose jail time, they rule over crimes that are not felonies so can impose up to year in jail per charge. I'm lost though what your post has to do with a school zone ticket, that is a civil infraction only punishable by a monetary fine.
 @SimpleMan Not in traffic court for a red light camera ticket.  It is against the law for these judges to even offer jail time as payment let alone threaten with it. Â
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 @Andrew Bush  @SimpleMan You said nothing in your post about it being offered in traffic court of for a traffic ticket. You just said a municipal court judge cannot threaten jail time. In criminal matters a municipal court judge can impose jail time for non-payment of fines. Take a second and make sure you are providing relevant info before posting. If you read all of my response, based on the new information you are providing, I am in agreement with you since a civil infraction can only be punished by monetary penalties.Â
Where I live in Everett, there are several trees that they leave untrimmed blocking the school zone signs. These have NO lights, just a sign saying "when children are present". EPD sits there issuing tickets (many times after the car has left the school zone) even if kids are playing behind a large fence with no gate. They also play this game near work zones where no work is being done. They are targeting zones that have double fines to justify their budget. If I'm doing 23 in a 20, its because I was watching for kids who don't always follow the crossing rules instead of my speedometer.
I'm stunned by all the agreement and civility.
So you already got a ticket there once, you get another ticket, and then blame the flashing lights for not working. Then you use the "I'm a parent who is hyper-sensitive about child safety" qualification as to how concerned you are for kids and would never speed in a school zone. If you were as "hyper-sensitive" as you claim, all the other drivers would have been pissed at you for driving 20 when the lights weren't working because you would have already known that school was getting ready to start. If your issue is with the lights not working properly I get it. But don't then throw in what a wonderful parent you are and that you would never have sped through the school zone if only the lights were working. I know plenty of people, including myself, who love their kids and would never conscientiously speed through a school zone. We all get out the door late for work and the next thing you know you are paying more attention to being on time and not what is going on as you drive.
...and Lake Forest Hills is doing a similar trick along a stretch of Ballinger as folks are coming around the sharp bend (or up to that area) -- be sure to do 20mph for that stretch (approx a mile long) NO MATTER WHAT TIME OF DAY, WHAT TIME OF YEAR, AND WHAT SIGNS ARE OR ARE NOT POSTED.A nice ILLEGAL way for LFH to collect some much needed revenue, as they've been advertising the need for ... (as a suggestion - if you rcv a ticket in the mail... you have a 50/50 chance of winning if you take the time to fight it in court -- BRING AS MUCH PROOF AS YOU CAN SCRAPE UP ... I did, and I won!)
jlt
 @jltKirkland I'd like to more about the notice of infraction issued, frankly. Ballinger is a state highway - SR-104 - which brings a couple of factors immediately into play.
1) Any infraction issued while driving on SR-104 would have to be processed through King County District Court - presumably in Shoreline - NOT through Lake Forest Park Municipal Court.
2) On a state highway with posted speed limits, a school zone would seem to have to have an explicit 20 MPH school speed limit sign in order to be enforceable - and furthermore they usually do not post or enforce such restrictions on state highways anyway.
I drive SR-104 daily, and while I do know of a 30 MPH speed limit from just west of 35th Ave NE to the SR-522 junction, I have never seen a 20 MPH school speed sign on the route. There is a school crossing warning sign about 300 feet each side of 37th Ave NE, but there is no actual marked school crossing across SR-104. The warning signs - per specs in MUTCD - seem related to the crosswalk across 37th Ave NE about 60 feet north of SR-104. I do not believe these actually create a reduced-speed zone on SR-104 itself.
If LFPPD issued you a notice of infraction and you never actually left SR-104 and were not exceeding the 30 MPH posted speed limit, it may have been improperly issued.
But as I said in another post, LFP does seem to have an attitude of "RULES are for OTHER people!"
 @jltkirkland:Â
It's Lake Forest PARK - not "Hills".
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If you are going to rant & rave about it, at least get the name right so people know what & where you are talking about if they are not familiar with the area.
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LFP has MANY areas that do not require it signed as 20 MPH at all times. People coming out of Shoreline down Perkins Way are allowed to go 35MPH in Shnoreline City limits, then it drops to 20 once you hit LFP - and there are cops there with radar guns waiting to "make sure you obey the speed limit". The same is true for 24th NE.
I now feel vindicated! I received a $250 fine at this same school zone in May, before the city "fixed over the summer to show the flashing yellow lights." I fought this ticket on the grounds of NO flashing lights were visible when the ticket was issued (15 minutes after school, with no children present), but I was only able to get the fine cut in half. What I found most disturbing was the disclaimer statement that you MUST sign in order to resolve your dispute that says you AGREE the electronics involved in this photo ticket process were properly working-- this is BS as the electronics were NOT working properly at that time! I would sure like to join a class action lawsuit against this Federal Way "fundraiser." And by the way, I had a perfect 40-year no-ticket/no-accident driving record before this false fine, and I am a retired drivers ed. instructor and safety patrol coordinator at schools that I taught at-- I know exactly what was going on in that school zone at that time in May.  BRING ON THE LAWYERS!Â
Well, I can tellyou another reason that the ticket is invalid, right from the photograph. That big yellow sign right in the foreground - the one that says "Photo Enforced" - is NOT VALID to be posted alone. It MUST be posted ONLY as part of an "assembly" or "stack" which further clarified just WHAT is being photo enforced. Posted alone like this, it fails to signify whether the photo enforcement applies to spitting on the sidewalk or a duck crossing! Speed? How can you tell?
Actually, there is a chain of law involved here, from RCW through WAC and into a federal publication called the MUTCD of Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices. This sign, called a "W16-10 Photo Enforced Plaque", is restricted in MUTCD Section 2C.53 which states, "Option: A PHOTO ENFORCED (W16-10) plaque (see Figure 2C-11) may be mounted below a warning sign to advise road users that the regulations associated with the condition being warned about (such as a traffic control signal or a toll plaza) are being enforced by photographic equipment. Standard: If used below a warning sign, the PHOTO ENFORCED plaque shall be a rectangle with a black legend and border on a yellow background."
The W16-10 plaque would be valid ONLY if it were attached to the same signpost as - and below - the school zone warning sign and the 20 MPH speed limit sign. As it is posted alone, it is not valid under MUTCD, and so it does not satisfy the posting requirement of RCW 46.63.160(7)(d) - thus making the entire photo enforcement installation non-compliant and legally unenforceable.
A smart attorney could argue this as a class action and get every fine ever collected from that photo unit refunded with interest and penalties - PLUS his or her attorney fees.
 @JLS1950 You only see part of the sign post in the photo, watch the video and you will see the entire sign post and it is not posted alone.
 @oledawg You may be correct: there is a W16-10 plaque in the video mounted beneath a school speed limit sign. However, it is not entirely clear that this is the same posting seen in the still frame - the angle does not look quite the same.
Furthermore, the W16-10 is required to be mounted beneath a WARNING sign, NOT merely beneath a REGULATORY sign. It is still not actually compliant unless the TOP sign of the stack is either a diamond-shaped warning sign or else a house-shaped or "home plate" school crossing warning sign (black on yellow with the silhouetted boy and girl carrying books.)
(There is an R-series plaque - similarly restricted - for use beneath regulatory signs.)
In Lake Forest Park, there are three completely independent and thus non-compliant postings of W16-10, and one that is only very marginally compliant because the W16-10 is posted at the top of the stack ABOVE the home-plate warning sign. And I think they maybe just added two more wholly non-compliant postings at Briarcrest.
"RULES... are for OTHER people." --LFPCC
...But the defense does work in court.
 @LocalLady I don't know about that tax base theory. They have the entire lake shore from Seattle to Kenmore, Sheridan Beach, Sheridan Terrace, two or three ravines full of very expensive homes, all of Horizon View and the small mountain it sits on, and one medium-sized shopping mall.
I think the real issue is a certain reluctance of officials in LFP to spend some of their tax revenue on actually learning how the law really works and on training police officers who have more tools and judgment than just to be badge-carrying bullies (although most are fairly reasonable nonetheless - it is the city council that really seems to have elevated opinions of itself.) I won't explicitly extrapolate that into the prevailing politics.
LFP PD is notorious for pulling you over for every conceivable thing & writing you a ticket. I belive it's because they really do not have much of a tax base, so that's how they make budget every year.
 @JLS1950 This is what we call a well thought out opinion/response to the story. Thanks. So much better than the knee-jerk emotional spewing I see too often here.
Same thing happened to me down in Hoquiam. They dismissed the ticket under the condition I didn't do it again for six months even with the proof I wasn't speeding through the school zone! It's a crock and a scam.
The red light ticket scam continues.Â
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He told the Federal way police 1 1/2 years ago about the problem. Â They did nothing until this summer according to their own statements.Â
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It was my understanding that the red light camera company hires police officers to sit verify that traffic laws were actually broken before these tickets are mailed. Â
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What a scam. Â The DOT, the cops and the judges are all in on it. Â Hey its their salaries during a recession they are protecting too. Â
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I have never seen such dishonesty in our city governments as we have now. Â Blatant corrupt people deciding that YOU need to pay when you are just trying to get by yourself. Â
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Sickening.Â
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 @Andrew Bush In my opinion, red light traffic cameras are just like privatized prisons: for profit enterprises that will never be about justice, and will always be about money.
 @Andrew Bush Wow...I'm agreeing with a lefty om an issue....Helll freeze over this morning?
 @Andrew Bush Get a clue.
There is a preponderance of evidence,â â¬albeit not conclusive,â â¬indicating that red light running camera systems improve the overall safety of intersections where they are used.â â¬As expected,â â¬angle crashes are usually reduced and,â â¬in some situations,â â¬rear-end crashes increase,â â¬but to a lesser extent.
Installed and used correctly the use of red light cameras reduces the severity of injuries at an intersection.â  â¬The number of rear end collisions may increase but the overall severity of injuries is reducedâÂ
N A T I O N A Lâ  â¬C O O P E R A Tâ  â¬I V Eâ  â¬H I G H W A Yâ  â¬R E S E A R C Hâ  â¬P R O G R A MNCHRPâ  â¬SYNTHESISâ â¬310Impact of Red Light Camera Enforcement onCrash ExperienceA Synthesis of Highway Practice The findings that can be drawn from the information accumulated are as follows.â â¬There is a preponderance of evidence,â â¬albeit not conclusive,â â¬indicating that red light running camerasystems improve the overall safety of intersections where they are used.â â¬As expected,â â¬anglecrashes are usually reduced and,â â¬in some situations,â â¬rear-end crashes increase,â â¬but to a lesserextent.â â¬There is also evidence,â â¬also not conclusive,â â¬that there is aâ ââ¬spilloverââ â¬effect to othersignalized intersections within a jurisdiction.â â¬To date,â â¬there have not been any research andeffectiveness evaluations conducted to address or answer the question of what factors relatedto the intersection design or operations,â â¬the use of warning signs,â â¬the level of fines,â â¬or anypublic outreach,â â¬have on observed crash changes As with all synthesis documents,â â¬this report relied exclusively on available informationâ;no new data collection or analysis was performed.â â¬The information came from publishedliterature,â â¬various websites,â â¬and from a questionnaire sent to more thanâ â¬50â â¬jurisdictions,known or believed to have installed red light running camera systems http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_synâ_â¬310.pdf
 @My_Thoughts  There was an extensive discussion of this matter about a year ago, and as I recall, studies were cited that showed a much greater positive effect from simply increasing the amber signal period and especially adding a half-second or so of "clearance time" with all signals showing red. It was also alleged and in some cases informally documented that when cameras were installed, amber phase timings were REDUCED by typically half a second or so - the inference being that the cameras are a revenue strategy and increased violations are desirable for the jurisdiction and for the camera contractor.
 @My_Thoughts  @Andrew Bush "There is a preponderance of evidence,â â¬albeit not conclusive,â â¬indicating that red light running camera systems improve the overall safety of intersections where they are used"
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A Study last year proved that the camera ticketing system does not improve safety. Â There is a web site that posts independent studies on these and you can read for yourself. Â Intersections that have red light cameras have seen increases in accidents. Â The site is "BanCams.com"
 @FBrumfield  @Andrew Bush Not one study doc or truly independent study cited to support your claims AND you choose to believe that studies cited by the, obviously biased from the name, "BanCams.com" are independent and factual, OK.
You also chose to flaunt the old argument equating safety and the number of accidents.  How does a minor rearender  or even a number of them not balance a reduction in cross traffic T-bone accidents that result in critical injuries and deaths?  I'll wait to see how you would explain your view to the family and friends waiting in ICUs visiting victims of those crossing accidents.Â
At least redlight cameras show the vehicle and the light at the same time. I would take any citation to court that does not show the lights as well as the vehicle, the proof is on them, if they cant show it they cant prove it.
 @SkaBob My mother was issues a ticket from Spokane.  She has never been there.  the photo showed a ford explorer.  She drives a pt cruiser.  It took 2 months and a threat to sue before anyone would even talk to her about it.  They just wanted the money.
There's a red-light camera on my way to work that triggers at the slightest provocation. When cars roll up to the intersection (stopping well behind the crosswalk), the camera flashes. When cars make a right turn on red (after making a full stop), the camera flashes. When pedestrians cross the street, the camera flashes.
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One of my friends was ticketed for supposedly running the red light at this intersection. I happened to be in the car at the time, and the light turned yellow as we were leaving the intersection - at no time was his car in the intersection when the light was red.
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Red-light cameras may be fine in theory, but the application is deeply flawed and, I suspect, deliberately rigged to give false positives. If I drove to work, I would mount a dashboard camera just to defend myself against fraudulent prosecution from these things.
It's pretty widely known now that these speed cameras and red light cameras are nothing more than a way for cities to generate increased revenue in order to keep the lavish benefits and salaries coming for their union employees (Lynnwood which also has traffic cameras fleeced their citizens of $2.2 million dollars in 2011). If it was truly a matter of safety for children the cities would keep more officers around school zones.
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Personally I can't remember any incident recently of a child being struck by a car in a school zone. It's time to get rid of these fraudulent revenue collecting machines once and for all.
 @ChrisJericho B$.  Widely know by whom?  Lets see YOUR data.
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There is a preponderance of evidence,â â¬albeit not conclusive,â â¬indicating that red light running camera systems improve the overall safety of intersections where they are used.â â¬As expected,â â¬angle crashes are usually reduced and,â â¬in some situations,â â¬rear-end crashes increase,â â¬but to a lesser extent.
Installed and used correctly the use of red light cameras reduces the severity of injuries at an intersection.â  â¬The number of rear end collisions may increase but the overall severity of injuries is reducedâÂ
N A T I O N A Lâ  â¬C O O P E R A Tâ  â¬I V Eâ  â¬H I G H W A Yâ  â¬R E S E A R C Hâ  â¬P R O G R A MNCHRPâ  â¬SYNTHESISâ â¬310Impact of Red Light Camera Enforcement onCrash ExperienceA Synthesis of Highway Practice The findings that can be drawn from the information accumulated are as follows.â
â¬There is a preponderance of evidence,â â¬albeit not conclusive,â â¬indicating that red light running camerasystems improve the overall safety of intersections where they are used.â â¬As expected,â â¬anglecrashes are usually reduced and,â â¬in some situations,â â¬rear-end crashes increase,â â¬but to a lesserextent.â â¬There is also evidence,â â¬also not conclusive,â â¬that there is aâ ââ¬spilloverââ â¬effect to othersignalized intersections within a jurisdiction.â â¬To date,â â¬there have not been any research andeffectiveness evaluations conducted to address or answer the question of what factors relatedto the intersection design or operations,â â¬the use of warning signs,â â¬the level of fines,â â¬or anypublic outreach,â â¬have on observed crash changes As with all synthesis documents,â â¬this report relied exclusively on available informationâ;no new data collection or analysis was performed.â â¬The information came from publishedliterature,â â¬various websites,â â¬and from a questionnaire sent to more thanâ â¬50â â¬jurisdictions,known or believed to have installed red light running camera systems http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_synâ_â¬310.pdf
 @My_Thoughts  @ChrisJericho There are at least a dozen sources that say your site is biased and bogus. I'll let you look 'em up.
 @Glassman  @ChrisJericho Since you so conveniently chose not to cite even one can I assume they're just your wishful thinking?
You can go look at the bibliography to see the where the study I cited got their data.  It seemed the most comprehensive of the compilations I could find.Â
 @My_Thoughts  @ChrisJericho sweet cut and paste skills there...but you did not need to paste the same thing so many times. We read it, and many of us disagree. Have a link:
http://www.nj.com/bergen/index.ssf/2012/08/state_senator_speaks_out_against_red_light_cameras_in_fort_lee.html
 @two loons  If people would stop spouting B$ I'd stop trying to correct their ignorance.
 @two loons  Since that article had no factual data about the effectiveness of red light cameras, I fail to see it's relevance to the discussion.
Â
@My_Thoughts @ChrisJericho
I would also like to add that the money generated from tickets goes to the state "General" fund not the police department. As a former Sheriff I have been trying to debunk this thought that there are quotas and the PD gets all the money for years. Its not how it works.
 @My_Thoughts ...not conclusive. ...usually reduced. ...in some situations. There are counties that are starting to pull RLC's because they're not bringing in enough money to pay for the cameras. Would they be doing this if it was truly as "safety" issue?
 @My_Thoughts Nope. Now they get rear ended for stopping. Personally, I go a different way to avoid the RLC's because I don't trust them and I feel anxious every time I approach one. Dumb.
 @two loons  @Stock Woodie The drop in "profit" from the cameras shows there effectiveness.  When people learn they get tickets when they run camera equipped intersection they stop running those lights.Â
 @My_Thoughts  @Stock Woodie They would not stop funding a source of revenue. If the camera brought in a profit consistently, they'd keep it and fire a human.
 @Stock Woodie In this era of severe budget crunches, yes they would stop funding things that weren't the most basic services.  Even though they reduce accident severity they don't reduce the costs of county services at the sites.  If their option was fund a camera or an officer which would you have them choose?Â