Educators rally against plan to assign letter grades to schools
OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Some state leaders say giving letter grades to public schools would let everyone know which schools need some extra help, but not everyone is sold on the plan.
The issue, according to state leaders, is how best to measure a school in the Seattle area against a school in Spokane or some other part of the state. Critics of the grading plan say it can't be done.
Protestors arrived in Olympia on Wednesday to make their feelings known about plan, known as Healthy Kids and Healthy Schools.
State Sen. Steve Litzow, R-Mercer Island, is behind the bill.
"We grade our kids this way," he said. "Everybody understands A to F. That's the whole point."
The bill would give every public school in Washington a letter grade based on student performance, test results and graduation rates. Schools that get high marks would receive more money
"It's simple and understandable," Litzow said. "That school is doing really well for its students or it's not."
But many people who work with students say Litzow's math doesn't add up. Local elementary school principal Ron Sisson spent years as a teacher in Los Angeles, where a similar system was in play.
"The issue that it created was that teachers were very selective about what students were in their class because they knew it was going to be a fiscal hit," Sisson said.
A fiscal hit is one thing, but a failing grade is another.
Janis Aimee doesn't see how you can compare her grandson's elementary school in Olympia to a school in a more rural area, such as Enumclaw.
"I don't think you can make those kind of judgements. This school in particular serves a lot of homeless children," she said. "Statistically, those kids tend to fall behind and so teachers end up playing catch up."
There is always debate about how best to hold teachers accountable, but many educators say this new bill is not the solution.
"The theory is they're going to reward high-performing schools with more money while really denying the support some of our neediest schools need," said Mary Lindquist, president of the Washington Education Association.
If the bill passes it would go into effect later this year, but there's no companion bill in the house, which may make for an uphill battle.
The issue, according to state leaders, is how best to measure a school in the Seattle area against a school in Spokane or some other part of the state. Critics of the grading plan say it can't be done.
Protestors arrived in Olympia on Wednesday to make their feelings known about plan, known as Healthy Kids and Healthy Schools.
State Sen. Steve Litzow, R-Mercer Island, is behind the bill.
"We grade our kids this way," he said. "Everybody understands A to F. That's the whole point."
The bill would give every public school in Washington a letter grade based on student performance, test results and graduation rates. Schools that get high marks would receive more money
"It's simple and understandable," Litzow said. "That school is doing really well for its students or it's not."
But many people who work with students say Litzow's math doesn't add up. Local elementary school principal Ron Sisson spent years as a teacher in Los Angeles, where a similar system was in play.
"The issue that it created was that teachers were very selective about what students were in their class because they knew it was going to be a fiscal hit," Sisson said.
A fiscal hit is one thing, but a failing grade is another.
Janis Aimee doesn't see how you can compare her grandson's elementary school in Olympia to a school in a more rural area, such as Enumclaw.
"I don't think you can make those kind of judgements. This school in particular serves a lot of homeless children," she said. "Statistically, those kids tend to fall behind and so teachers end up playing catch up."
There is always debate about how best to hold teachers accountable, but many educators say this new bill is not the solution.
"The theory is they're going to reward high-performing schools with more money while really denying the support some of our neediest schools need," said Mary Lindquist, president of the Washington Education Association.
If the bill passes it would go into effect later this year, but there's no companion bill in the house, which may make for an uphill battle.
The only problems is that there will always be kids that slack and do as little possible to pass, if not fail. The teachers need to contact the parents more and make sure that they understand that their child is not making the grade. So I see no reason why schools shouldn't be evaluated.Maybe it will help make the teacher more liable when it comes to education. If the Teachers  notify the parents and make a real effort to let the parents know that their child needs help ,and then  the parents do nothing.............. then that childs grade should not go against the school grading.
Read most of the posts, same old emotional knee jerk reaction. We have a problem nationwide in our schools period. I am not sure how to solve it, however having someone who has been out of school 20 years tell a school how to run their classes does not seem right to me. #1 the problem exists.#2 A fair means of grading the schools and performance of the teachers needs to be established.#3 This oversight needs to be done by Currently active and qualified teachers.
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There is much more that can be said about this but there are some good posts here, read them all. Parents, you can make a difference. If your child is not performing well, turn off the boob tube and sit down with them every evening and have them go back over their school work. If they have homework have them "over achieve+ on it. Keep them on the honor roll, when they are in high school have them do running start. Check with the school and see what scholarships are available and have your child work towards those. If you have to, move your child from one school to another.
If legislators had to evaluate schools on all of the criteria teachers have to grade students, or evaluators have to grade teachers, then we could talk.
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Public schools...ugh! Glad I yanked my kids out 12 years ago...these stories make me yawn! Keep doing all this stupid stuff and dumping money down a broken toilet, my kids are being held to 10 times the standard that these public cess pools do. SAT? They start preparing for them when they are in elementary. College scholarships? Start thinking about it then too. You can keep experimenting on your kids, we opted to bail ours out of these learning prisons and set them up for success. By the time my son graduates he will have over 2 years of concurrent credit at a 4 year private university and most of the rest paid in scholarships. Keep blabbing about these silly experiments while those of us who have chosen to put our extra money into our kid's education pass your kids up. Get smart, sell your boats, fancy cars, and don't take that expensive vacation and put that money into a private school or at the very least running start and get your kids out of this broken down system.
My daughter went to public school and she had the same credits as your son with a full scholarship. She was a laureate graduate with a gpa of 5.1. Private school is not for everybody and I believe that the success of your children doesn't just depend on the school they go to, it begins at home. She has a BA in psychology, a BA in world religion and has completed part of her master in elementary education. She is now a first grade teacher.Â
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Our schools do have the A-F grading system.  The teachers get formal observations in the classroom, which includes having their lesson plans evaluated. The also get informal observations, walk throughs of their classrooms by both the principal and other county administrative staff.  Getting poor evaluations means the principal does not have to ask them back to teach the next year. This system does tend to weed out those that do not want to or can not do a good job. I know my daughter spends alot of time reseaching techniques for motivating her students and classroom management. No matter how far behind they were at the start of the year, there is not one single child less than grade level now, many are far above.
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There are some really great public school teachers who are really committed to their students.  I am the proud mom of a public school  teacher in an "A" school here in Florida.
I have 4 kids. They are grown now but since my husband was in the Navy we had kids in school districts in 3 different states. My son started school in a small town in South Carolina. We transferred him to Everett in February of 1st grade. I was afraid he would be behind his future class mates. Boy was I wrong. He didn't learn anything new the rest of that year. In San Diego he started behind but was able to catch up. The difference was in South Carolina the schools are run by the counties not cities. That way all the schools had the same curriculum. Some of the teachers there were certified not degreed. They realized that many teachers could not pass a test written at 12th grade level. They gave the teachers one year to study to pass the test. 30% still could not pass the test. They were let go. Maybe instead of testing the kids we should make sure the teachers know what they are teaching. Kids do not know the basics. Ask a kids what 10% of 100 is. Most can't tell you without a calculator. There must be changes on every level but first the legislators must put back the funding. Have them give up their cell phones and art and dry cleaning to educate our kids.
 @taxpro I share a similar experience with you. We moved from Central Canada a few years back. It was spring break there and so when we moved here, spring break started the following week in the Lake Washington School District. After her two week break, she headed off to school and I soon got a call stating that all the course work being covered she did the year before at her school back in Canada.Â
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State legislators: Please spend an entire week in a struggling school in your area of representation before you make any decisions. Attend the classes. Walk the halls. Talk with the teachers and students. Go to a play or a concert or a game. Ride a school bus. Sit in the faculty room at lunch and spend some time in the cafeteria. Sit outside the assistant principal's office and talk with the kids who are sent there. Inform yourselves. There is no other way.
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@Bernard Gui I have noticed comments where people state that there can be over 30 children in a class. Maybe that is a good place to start. The public school my daughter teaches at has a maximum of 20 students per class. This year she has 16 first graders. More attention per child is a good recipe for success in the classroom and allows teachers to do more teaching than crowd control. It comes at a price, of course. I would rather my taxes went to education than excessive legislater's expenses or the like.
 @Bernard Gui Those are EXCELLENT ideas!
 @Bernard Gui My kid was sent to the principals office once for clearing her throat in class. She has Tourettes and they knew this and it didn't stop them from suspending her from school for 2 weeks. The school even admitted that being the reason. So, yea, I think grading schools is a GREAT idea. Get some of those power trolls that call themselves educators out of the system. If they still want a job, then they can go back into retraining. Â
 @PrairieDawn  @Bernard Gui I'm not questioning your story, but that would not have happened in any school where I have taught for the last 40 years. Is there more to the story?
@PrairieDawn @Bernard Gui At public school, your child has accomodations if you pursue it, although there is a limit to disruptions, of course.
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In a private school, they would simply tell you that they could not serve your daughter.
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Oh...and wear casual clothes and leave your cell phones at home. They will be confiscated if you use them in class.
Are you kidding me? Â Nothing good will come out of this. Â I really feel sorry for the kids and parents here. Â You absolutely cannot trust a person to use the letter grades solely as a way to identify where a school needs some help. Â People are going to use this subjective and biased grading system to create negative connotations, stereotypes, and prejudices against the elements (students) of schools that hold bad grades. Â This is just ridiculous and asinine!Â
@31F Not so. Our school district uses this A-F system of grading schools based on test results. It comes along with very strict evaluation of teachers through observations by principals and county admin staff. Teachers who can not get up to par are not asked to return. It is weeding out those who can not or will not do a good job. My daughter is a first grade teacher at an "A" school. Everybody wants that A grade and they are working hard to make it happen, including moving staff particularly skilled in one particular area to a school that is in most need of their expertise.
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You are also able to view a report online to see what the grade of a local school is before you buy a home in the area.
Here is what I'd like to see instead. Â In real estate, they do "comparable", I think they call it. Â They take similar houses in similar nearby neighborhoods and give you values on them based on their sales. Â I'd like to see a law that everyone who purchases a house or moves into a residence is given a "comparable" of the schools before signing. Â As well, each year all residents would get the same and it would be published publicly. Â No need to get into too many details, but you can measure things like graduation rate, % passing standardized tests on each try, college entrances, % successfully passing their grade, etc. Â This can be done easily and people who are concerned can do their own measurement. Â This can go from district level all the way to a single teacher.
 @marvin Kind of throws the "neighborhood school" concept a fast and high curve ball, don't you think?
 @Bernard Gui How so?  Let people decide for themselves if things are up to par for their children.  I'm not sure how being open and honest and transparent about the schools hurts anyone.
Giving a failing school a failing grade isn't going to help it and giving money to rich schools that don't have as many social problems is hideous. Teachers should be held accountable individually for their performance.
Grade a simple A to F system do they really need to dumb down were already 15th or 16th in the world in education..
THAT WAS NOT WHAT THE PROTEST WAS ABOUT. THE PROTEST WAS ABOUT GETTING MORE FUNDING TO SUPPORT THE HOMELESS CHILDREN AND GIVE THEM BETTER LUNCH. WHATEVER THOSE LEGISLATURES WERE DOING WHILE WE WERE OUTSIDE WASN'T OUR BUISSNESS.
 @ghost rayez And golly! Are you a good poster child for better education or what?
The best way to grade a school is to go there for a week, attend random classes, sit in the lunchroom, go to the faculty room during lunch, observe and ask questions, and ride the bus home with the kids. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air.
Of course teachers don't want to be held accountable. Â The slightest move toward accountability for teachers or schools and they call in the union. Â Get over yourselves and understand there is a problem with the educational system and you are part of it. Â
 @pacnorthwest it's not about being held accountable, it's the fact that students are not all made from the same materials and not all come from a great background. Some kids don't try that hard and not even the world's greatest teacher can motivate them to achieve at a high level. Some kids struggle with learning disabilities or have extremely rough home lives and school isn't important to them. Are you really telling me that the teachers at Newport and Mercer Island are simply better than the teachers at Rainier Beach or Lincoln?? Are the differences in results really just based on the quality of teaching? If so then I have a bridge in New York to sell you. Try teaching in a school for a day yourself (but I know you don't have the stones to do so)
 @Sanctuary  @pacnorthwest But if kids are not the same, etc, then WHY do we have a school system that says anyone of a given age is in grade X (unless you are in the top or bottom 2%, maybe) and not matter how well or poorly they do, they get moved along with their cohort? Why is it that a HS Physics teacher with 160 students is paid the same as an elementary teacher with 15 kids, if their education *level* and years of experience are the same? Why to teachers get paid the same whether their students learn a lot, or nothing?
What are the incentives in that sort of system? (Hint -they are ALL perverse)
It's the fundamental philosophical design of the schools that are wrong.
 @pacnorthwest Spend a week in the school of your choice and then come back and see if you want to rewrite any of this.Â
The teachers and their union are against anything proposed to improve student outcomes. What crap. Fire them all and let's start fresh.
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 @giveitarest It's not that they are against improving outcomes. It is that the teachers are against doing anything differently (because they are comfortable doing what they are doing now), and the union is against anything that reduces union dues (meaning fewer teachers, lower pay, or anything they have no control of).
 @RN1  @giveitarest You could not be farther from the truth.
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 @giveitarest While Bernard and I disagree below, he is right here.  My wife is a teacher and she is all for things that improve outcomes
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 @giveitarest You could not be farther from the truth.
I find it absolutely HILARIOUS that "educators" can't get behind this idea, using as reasoning the -very same- reasons that could apply in not to giving A-F grades to students!
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How can one student in an inner city school POSSIBLY be graded with the same yardstick as a student in the country?
 @Commenter87643 A to F grading is a thing of the past. It is no longer used in most schools, and those do will change shortly.Â
Unbelievable.  Could they come up with a more divisive scheme?  How does this help educate the children or actually improve the school? Â
 @Smokin Bear It lets you know where your school is at and where its going.  Do you really know how good your local schools are?   Most people think theirs are fine til they realize their kids can't read.  Then they blame the schools.  Blame the schools,but unless you measure them and publish the measurements, blame yourselves for not insisting.
 @marvin Yes, I do and as a parent I taught my child to read before school age and later, I made the time to help my child through academic processes.Â
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 This is a sickening bid for "status posturing" as if it were a legitimate attempt to validate the needs of students. Â
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What's the criteria for the 'grading' process? How should the schools be "measured?" Or is it a popularity contest designed by people who want attention? "My school's better than your school." Â C'mon. Â
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Where are the parents? With so many resources available to boost a child's learning experience at home, there is no excuse for illiteracy. Â
People need to think about what this may do to residential property values. What is your house going to be worth if the nearest schools have poor grades?
 @Ankle Biter Generally, people who care already know.
Teachers never want to be measured like the rest of us.
 @marvin Not so. Teachers must play the hand they are dealt every September. There are no constants. The problem is coming up with a useful measurement that is fair and can be applied across the board.Â
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@Bernard Gui @marvin Last year my daughter had 12 special needs (ADD, ADHD, behavoral issues) children in her class out of 17. Of course the test scores were lower than a class with a better mix. Too much time had to be spent correcting behavioral issues. This year she has that better mix and all of her children are at grade level or higher, no matter how far behind they were when they came in. She has no problem being evaluated. The principal is in her classroom at this very minute evaluating her math lesson for an hour. If the person observing her has a suggestion, she is grateful for the advice, as a newer teacher. If you want to do your job well, you should be happy to have evaluations that will help you to become the very best you can be at your job.
 @Bernard Gui Further to my point below, imagine being a doctor.  You aren't dealt a changing hand every September.  You are dealt one every day with every patient.  And yet, we rate the heck out of them.
 @Bernard Gui  @marvin Every one of us in a professional position have the same issue.  My own job is not the same from one week to the next.  My goals are dependent on others and the baseline is very mutable.  But I'm measured.  My performance is documented.  It seems rather simple to me.  You test the kids on the way in, you test them on the way out.  The difference between the two is how much they've learned.  With this you get "they teach to the test", which seems to be a bad thing.  But the bad thing, then, isn't the teach to the test mentality. The improvement, then, has to be be, make a better test.
 @Bernard Gui I could  get  behind that.  Ken Robinson type stuff. Â
 @marvin The 25 who passed the test should get the credit and move on to the next class. They are wasting their time. The 50 who struggle with basic math should not be taking an algebra test. They will be better served doing whatever it takes to get them ready for algebra. Those who don't care about algebra or graduation should have the options of work/study, apprenticeships, learning a trade, community service, etc. Nothing will change until the ***students*** are held accountable for their learning choices.
 @Bernard Gui Not sure what you're getting at here.  So if I understand, 25 passed the basic algebra test going in, 50 did not.  So at the end of the year, lets suppose 50 now pass and 25 fail.  There is a progress rate there that is measurable.  Lets take this scenario.  Mrs. Jones has a class that has 30 students who read at a 4th grade level at the beginning of the year.  At the end of the year, 28 of them read at a 5th grade level.  Mrs. Jones did well.  Mrs. Smith has the same situation and has 12 of them reading at the 5th grade level.  Not as well.  So Mrs. Smith's class may not be the ideal class and she is not to blame for them not learning.  Fair enough.  But this now occurs for 3 years in a row.  Does Mrs. Smith bear no responsibility for the children not learning?  I come from a family of teachers, so I know the challenges as well as anyone who doesn't teach.  Of the three teachers in my family, two of them are (were) great teachers, cared enough about their students progress, etc.  The third knew he couldn't be fired and didn't give a darn about the kids, and will tell you that outright.  And he went his 30 years and retired on full pension and benefits.  He was one of the lowest rated teachers in his district by all standards, but was cautious enough not to do anything to lose his job.  So, should we just say suck it taxpayers and you poor suckers who lucked into his classroom, or do we try to get people like him out of education?  And if I'm wrong on how, tell me how do you get him out?Â
 @marvin Let's suppose you are a high school math teacher with 5 algebra classes of 34 kids each. You test them all going in, and 25 already know basic algebra and pass the entrance test. 50 of them struggle with basic math and are not ready for algebra. The rest fall some where in between, with a sizable percentage that don't care whether or not they pass algebra or graduate from high school. The school district requires all students to take algebra. This is the hand you are dealt. Can you think of a better way to do this? I can.Â
So do we reward the A schools or do we provide more resources (aka "money) to the F schools? Â Is it always about the teaching? Â Or do parenting, socio-economic factors, cultural factors and geographical factors make a difference?If we don't KNOW the answers, how can we create a map that leads to a solution?Grading is simple and easy.... all the simple and easy methods were used long ago. Â I think it is time to rethink a LOT of how we teach. Â Perhaps we need to move away from brick and mortar and more toward online schools... or neighborhood schools (say in an apartment building) with a non-certified monitor and the teachers providing teaching by video. Â Maybe the brick and mortar schools are just too expensive with their multiple layers of administration and security. Â Â
 @cdc My grandmother was taught in a one room school with a wood plank floor and a wood fireplace.  There was no carpet, computers or even indoor plumbing.  I saw some of her school stuff after she died and was shocked to see that in her 6th grade class she was doing stuff that I did not get to until the 9th!  I am so tired of excuses.
@K. Coleman @cdc I think kids back in the day arrived at school more ready to learn and in less need of parenting. The kids ready to learn these days are more likely to be in private schools.Â