Elderly wife contemplates divorcing husband to save his life
SEATTLE -- A 79-year old woman was so desperate to save her husband's life and so frustrated with the Department of Social and Health Services that she came up with the most desperate of plans.
Before Mary O'Grady contacted the Problem Solvers, she was about to divorce her husband of nearly 50 years because she thought it was the only way to save his life.
Everything Les O'Grady accomplished in his life, he did with his beloved wife Mary by his side. Together they explored the world and shared a love of books, art, architecture, aviation and classical music.
Les is suffering from overall deteriorating health. And now in what is likely the final chapter of their marriage, Mary is by her husband's side. It is where she's always been, as his wife, his caretaker, his everything.
"Our marriage vows (said) in sickness and in health," she said. "That's the whole thing. That's it."
Mary knows to truly help him, she needs help. She reached out to DSHS and didn't get what she needed, so she called the Problem Solvers. Mary said DSHS was providing some assistance, but she insisted it wasn't enough and that Les qualified for more than seven hours a day of home care help.
Through Medicaid, the state provides 196 hours a month, and Mary covers all the other hours.
"I need someone that would be the second caregiver and look after him, so I can devote my time with him to teach him to talk, have him look at music and do things he likes with whatever time he has left to try and enjoy himself, and I can't do it," she said.
Mary was desperate for help, and she came up with a desperate plan.
"I got all the divorce papers," she said.
Mary said if she wasn't married to Les, she could at least attempt to get hired by the state as his caregiver.
"I thought if I got a divorce -- we talked about it -- I said we'll get money and we can get some help," she said.
The current homecare worker, who is contracted by DSHS, agrees.
"He needs the proper care. For him to get the proper care she needs more help. He's getting great care, but it's what she can do," the caregiver said.
According to his DSHS file, Les has approval for 346 hours of care each month, which is much more than the 196 he's currently getting.
Bill Moss, DSHS's Director of Home and Community Services, agreed to investigate the discrepancy. Moss admitted that based on his condition, Les was due more home care hours than he was getting. Another file revealed where things went south. As it turns out, Mary either fired or disagreed with every healthcare provider sent to the home, and it got so bad that none of them would take Les as a client.
"We tried to make that happen, but at the end of the day we have to have willing providers," Moss said.
So DSHS got creative. Instead of a healthcare provider, they found a home health aide agency willing to take Les as a client. But without explanation, his home service hours shrunk from 346 to 196 a month.
"It's absolutely disgusting," Mary said. "He deserves better quality of life than what he's getting from DSHS."
For months, Mary fought to get those hours back, even calling the Governor's office. DSHS is still investigating the issue, but Moss admits Les is entitled to those 346 hours.
Moss said he thinks a coding error may be to blame for the reduction of hours. Mary thinks the extra help will give her a much needed break and give her husband some peace in the end of his life.
Before Mary O'Grady contacted the Problem Solvers, she was about to divorce her husband of nearly 50 years because she thought it was the only way to save his life.
Everything Les O'Grady accomplished in his life, he did with his beloved wife Mary by his side. Together they explored the world and shared a love of books, art, architecture, aviation and classical music.
Les is suffering from overall deteriorating health. And now in what is likely the final chapter of their marriage, Mary is by her husband's side. It is where she's always been, as his wife, his caretaker, his everything.
"Our marriage vows (said) in sickness and in health," she said. "That's the whole thing. That's it."
Mary knows to truly help him, she needs help. She reached out to DSHS and didn't get what she needed, so she called the Problem Solvers. Mary said DSHS was providing some assistance, but she insisted it wasn't enough and that Les qualified for more than seven hours a day of home care help.
Through Medicaid, the state provides 196 hours a month, and Mary covers all the other hours.
"I need someone that would be the second caregiver and look after him, so I can devote my time with him to teach him to talk, have him look at music and do things he likes with whatever time he has left to try and enjoy himself, and I can't do it," she said.
Mary was desperate for help, and she came up with a desperate plan.
"I got all the divorce papers," she said.
Mary said if she wasn't married to Les, she could at least attempt to get hired by the state as his caregiver.
"I thought if I got a divorce -- we talked about it -- I said we'll get money and we can get some help," she said.
The current homecare worker, who is contracted by DSHS, agrees.
"He needs the proper care. For him to get the proper care she needs more help. He's getting great care, but it's what she can do," the caregiver said.
According to his DSHS file, Les has approval for 346 hours of care each month, which is much more than the 196 he's currently getting.
Bill Moss, DSHS's Director of Home and Community Services, agreed to investigate the discrepancy. Moss admitted that based on his condition, Les was due more home care hours than he was getting. Another file revealed where things went south. As it turns out, Mary either fired or disagreed with every healthcare provider sent to the home, and it got so bad that none of them would take Les as a client.
"We tried to make that happen, but at the end of the day we have to have willing providers," Moss said.
So DSHS got creative. Instead of a healthcare provider, they found a home health aide agency willing to take Les as a client. But without explanation, his home service hours shrunk from 346 to 196 a month.
"It's absolutely disgusting," Mary said. "He deserves better quality of life than what he's getting from DSHS."
For months, Mary fought to get those hours back, even calling the Governor's office. DSHS is still investigating the issue, but Moss admits Les is entitled to those 346 hours.
Moss said he thinks a coding error may be to blame for the reduction of hours. Mary thinks the extra help will give her a much needed break and give her husband some peace in the end of his life.
I am also a former caregiver of Les. Â
It was recently brought to my attention that a couple of the caregivers, myself included, were filmed without our consent by Mary during the course of our time spent there. Â She send the film to the powers that be stating that we were not giving him good enough care for her. Â
During a recent conference, it was asked if the caregivers were filmed with their consent of which everyone in the meeting said yes. Â However, at no point were any of us told about being filmed. Â I never signing or verbally agreed at any point to being filmed. Â Also at no point were there any visible video cameras during my time there. Â My employer, nor Mary, at any point told us they would be filming.
The state had told her that we were doing everything right. Â However, this raises the question of why did everyone think that we were being filmed?
Les deserves to have a peaceful rest of his life. Â I wish him and Mary well and hope that they get the adequate care they need and Les deserves.
Correction: during the meeting APS and the Case Manager stated we were filmed with our consent.
Love never fails.
Browsing around this offer pop up to me, and, unbelievable, but it's working, I make up to $42/hour, check it by Yourself, here .... x.co/bv4O
There but by the grace of god go any of us. We can all second guess and judge - but we can go on with our lives, turn the page, forget about the article. she and he will continue to live it.
This story is outrageous!! I am a nurse and I see this every single day. I know it is sad to look at, but there is major denial going on here. This man has end stage dementia and Parkinson's. He will not get better! I know people don't like to talk about it, but this man is going to die and more than likely soon. This wife nor anybody else, is going to teach him to talk again. His condition will continue to decline and he will go from small eye movements and mild grunts, to a complete vegetative state and then death. I know this woman loves her husband, but she has unrealistic expectations. When a patient is in that state of health, they do not need 24 hour healthcare. They need to be kept comfortable and that's about it! There is no rehab or anything else to do for them. Clean him up, feed him, give medications and turn him often to prevent sores and provide comfort. That's it! There is a reason DSHS only provides 196 hours a month of care. It's because for this patient, that is all that is required. Patients families love to find a target for their grief. It is simply misguided emotion. There is no "dropping the ball on providing care" for this man. It's a case of family with unrealistic expectations while choosing to ignore the inevitable. Keep this patient comfortable. At this point, that is all he requires. Let him die with dignity, not while your trying to teach him to talk or providing exercise. This is the reality that the general public does not want to hear and tons and tons of family members grieving loved ones go through everyday in America.
I feel bad for the old lady. I can't imagine the frustration, the anger, the heartbreak this woman is going through. She is losing the love of her life and only wants the best for him. If I felt someone wasn't taking the best care possible for my loved one, I'd be a grumpy brat too. She is overwhelmed, over worked, and at her age, she shouldn't be doing it alone. 7 hours of help a day is NOTHING when someone needs care around the clock. This poor woman is 79 years old!
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I understand she has fired every helper she has ever had but please keep in mind the heartache, the exhaustion, the loss that this woman is feeling. She has no one to vent to or to take her frustration out on. EVERYONE needs to unload sometimes and unfortunately the only people around were the workers who were trying to help her. I'm not saying it is right, but it seems to me that this woman is at her breaking point.
This woman is suffering from caretaker burnout and needs a lot of help herself. She is nearly 80 years old and the work she is doing is relentless. I get worn out sometimes just vacuuming the house, but when I'm done I can sit back and have a cup of coffee, maybe read a bit. Â She can't. Her work is never-ending.
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Those of you who are condemning her maybe need to take a walk in her shoes. Or just STFU. Â You think because she's getting help from "the government" she's not allowed to complain? Â So only rich people with tons of money get to complain, is that right? Â Self-righteousness is very unbecoming, ugly even, because it assumes that you are somehow better than whoever you are condemning. That you would never find yourself in someone else's situation and even if you did, you would be ever so much better at handling it. He//, maybe you'd even kowtow a little to show how "thankful" you are for help, even if that help sucks.
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This woman may be somewhat taciturn because she is exhausted and has been for a long time. She needs rest for her body and for her mind. She's not getting it.
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 @fyrefawx Its not that she isnt allowed to complain- but my GOD that woman has fired or argued with every person who came in to try and help her!!! I know first hand how hard it is to be a caretaker- my mom had alzheimers for 20 years of her life- 10 years of that she was bedridden. Me and my dad were her main caretakers-- and becuase I didnt want to lose the help that did come in- I managed to get along with them!!!Â
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My dad later had a stroke- and I also took care of him at home as long as I could- because of my health problems he is now in a nursing home. They use the "hoyer lift" on my dad several times a day to get him in and out of bed- and believe me it doesnt hurt him near as much as people grabbing and pulling and trying to get him up that way!!!
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Truth is that woman could have porbably got someone to come in more hours- but my bet- nobody wanted to come and help becuase of her abravasive attitude!!! And you know something else- she is not helping her husbands well being when shouting and argueing with all the helpers that come in to help her husband. Mty bet is I bet she does some shouting and hollaring at her poor husband as well!! When I was a caretaker for my mom and dad- I tried to avoide as much disturbance around them as I could- and yes that did mean trying to get along with the other caretakers!!!
 @Helen Hevener  @fyrefawx Taking care of my grandma was truly exhausting. It didn't matter that it was supposed to be 8 hrs a day, or whatever, I did it 24/7 for almost 2 years. I became physically ill, and emotionally depressed to the point of ..IDK, I HAD to get her somewhere for my health, my families and of course hers. I'm an ex-cop. During my classes for care giving, they said that 70% of caregivers die before the person they are taking care of. Most of it is because of the burnout that causes such emotional and physical problems.Â
I had no idea I was safer in my patrol car. Plus my grandma is MEAN!! I mean, really that woman could have anyone in tears in less than five minutes. I couldn't get a lot of people to stay because of her attitude.Â
Now she's fine and is in a beautiful home with a gorgeous view of Seattle and the Space Needle, and she still hates everything..oh well..I'm done, DONE..I can just be her granddaughter now and leave when I have or need to.
You are a strong, wonderful daughter Helen. I envy your courage and patience. Take care of yourself please, the world needs people like you!
 @Helen Hevener You're right of course, it is so hard on someone who is ill to have shouting and upheaval around them. You're right about everything else too, I just saw a frail old woman and remembered how hard it was for my mom to do the slightest thing at that age and she didn't even have anyone to care for but herself. Hopefully, there can be a little bending on both sides and she can get some help.
While I feel sorry for the poor old man- the woman not so much. I dealt 20 years with a mother who had alzheimers- and then later a father who had a stroke. I had home health care come in for both- and I was grateful enough for the help that I tried my best to get along with them. It states this woman had fired or had arguements with almost every person who had come in to help with her husband- sounds like to me the woman has some mental issues as well.Â
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I saw were she was even livid over them wanting to use a "hoyer" lift- my question is why??? After my dad's stroke a hoyer lift has been used to move him around several times a day- it is not going to kill you!!! In fact if a patient cant move around the hoyer lift is the best thing for getting them in and out of the wheelchair etc.Â
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If you want government help or help through an insurance company- then dont balk at every person they send to help- it will end up that nobody wants to put their employees through working for that woman- and she will lose any help she has at all!!
 @Helen Hevener She sounds like my grandma. SHE fired everyone too! For herself!! GOD almighty I can't believe I lived through that. She's like a snake, except snakes usually warn you before they strike.
She was wonderful when I was growing up. She literally saved my life. I know why she is the way she is, and she had a horrible childhood. But I love that cranky old woman, I love her so much I think that's why it was so hard. She was so capable, so intelligent, walked on her hands at 82 years old! Kinda freaky but cool..I wish her nothing but the best. I wish they also had a "nice" pill..she could sure use it.
 @Helen Hevener A hoyer lift often times is more comfortable for the patient too, then people pulling on limbs, pulling them around by their pants, or digging into them to try and get a grip while moving. I posted last night, I used to care for this man, who has been suffering now for at least 10 years. At that time he was in a nursing home and Im pretty sure asked to leave because of his wifes behavior. She is extremely difficult to work with, and he suffers because of it. She needs to stop controlling and let someone else take over and help, with a hoyer for his comfort.
Wow. She complained about and/or fired EVERY person & agency sent to help - then complains she is getting no help? In watching the video, where it highlighted comments about their case file, one in particular struck me - "she absolutely refuses a hoyer lift". WHY? A hoyer lift would mean that he could be gotten out of the bed, whether for bathing or any other reason, safely without risk of injury to himself or his caregiver. Why would someone refuse it? While I am not unsympathetic to people in deteriorating conditions (hell, I worked for 10 years as a CNA) she seems to have brought this situation on herelf through her actions.
Wow, I used to take care of this man YEARS ago. When I first clicked to view the video I thought "how awful" until I recognized them. DSHS is correct about her. She is an extremely difficult person to work with. Years ago, she had bursts of anger, screaming at both her husband, nurses, and us CNAs, and even getting physical. Unfortunately, her husband isnt getting the care he deserves and is entitled to because of her behavior and attitude. I think its great that she has stuck by his side for so long, but she needs to let go a bit and let others take over with care. And I do agree that DSHS needs to provide better services. A loved one of mine just passed not long ago and was under home care through DSHS. It was hard enough to see someone you love deteriorate, but even harder to see that they arent getting the adequate care that they need. At the end of the day though, this man is suffering, and doesnt deserve to go this way, and I hope he gets the help and comfort that he needs throughout the remainder of his life.
 @sierracafe Your reply makes me wonder greatly about your professionalism as a home health care worker. I would hope that if you had ever worked for me that you would have the professional ethics to not talk about me or my family in a forum such as this without our permission.
 @Susan Wensel And just so you know, I could have stated how truly mean this woman was, and what she did. Her husband should be in a place where he is comfortable for the remainder of his life. Not having his wife put him on the news in this state. The man deserves dignity.
 @Susan Wensel Well good for you. I never gave information that wasn't already stated in the video. I never gave dates, places, or any personal information other than agreeing with what DSHS said. Btw, don't be so quick to jump to conclusions, SUSAN, I'm not a home health worker. :)
My husbands grandfather was a retired coal miner with half a lung and 84 years old when he died. He was going pretty strong the last month but then when into the hospital about a week before he died. He stated in writing and orally that he did not want any test or anything done to prolong his life all he wanted was to be comfortable. After his death his wife received the bills and just a few hours before he died over ten thousand dollars worth of test were done. Yes people it is a business. And health care is in the business of making stock holders lots and lots of money.
 @tlc The US doesn't have health care, it has an illness treatment industry.
Watching this news episode makes me more thankful that we in Washington have the Death With Dignity Act; I would not want to continue on in the state of health that this gentleman seems to be in. And, I would not want
my bride to have to put up with me in this state of health.
Divorcing her husband would have just given her another set of unplesant circumstances to have to deal with and especially if he is unable to speak for himself. Perhaps instead of driving away everyone sent to help them she should be more grateful for the help she's given.
 @Jatok I once took care of a LOVELY woman who taught me this!  I worked at an assisted living facility that hired a male caregiver.  A lot of the women residents were upset that he might be giving them a shower.  I sympathized with their viewpoint.  I came into Mae's room and told her I was siding with the women who didn't want to be bathed by a younger man.  Mae said, "I would just be grateful someone came in to help me bathe." Â
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Shut me right up. Â Changed my perspective FOR MYSELF. Â Yet... I still think if it bothers someone, it's a valid complaint. Â ha ha
Just because a person gets old does not mean they should be stripped of their dignity. The seniors they are dealing with now came from a very different generation and that needs to be respected. It doesn't say in this article why this woman has dismissed so many caregivers so it's hard to tell. I took care of my mother in her last years and I can tell you she always found a reason not to like anyone who came to her home to help her. The bottom line is that they didn't do things right (in her mind) or they couldn't be trusted (supposidly they were stealing from her). It is
probably more of a situation with this woman that she is set in her ways and things
are only done properly if done her way.
Thank you, I wouldn't think much of myself as a person if I didn't do what I could for my family and loved ones. Sometimes even others. I have reached a point in my life where being a senior myself I realize that in a few years it will be me in that situation. I have tried real hard to make all of the necessary preparations I can to make things easier for my children when the time comes. The things that i have control over have been taken out of their hands and when the time comes I will turn over those things which I can't maintain but still need seeing to and hopefully I won't linger to the point that
I will be a burden on them. Fortunately my kids have never given me reason to not trust them so I am lucky. At a point it will be out of my hands no matter what. It's called life.
 @Jatok Sorry you and your mom went through that, but kudos to you for making her final years as comfortable and enjoyable as possible. I guess you know better than anyone, one of the classic symptoms of dementia is constantly thinking people are stealing from you.
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Probably due to the loss of control of everything else, including their own minds and bodies, but that doesn't make it any less stressful on the loved ones, caregivers or the patients themselves.Â
Actually, it is not uncommon for home health care workers to quit working for someone and claim they were fired by that person. And the family that lost the help has no idea what happened or why they can't get any more help.
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The usual reason is the family won't let someone slack off taking care of a loved one and the worker gets angry that they actually have to do the work. Not all home health care workers are like that but too many are.
 @Susan Wensel Have you ever worked in healthcare to know what you are talking about? Yes, there are a lot of people who slack and don't do their job. Trust me. If you worked in a nursing home, you wouldn't like what you see. Families should be very cautious and protective of their loved ones, however... some families can be far too overbearing and make care for their loved ones extremely difficult. Fact is, oftentimes home care workers, CNAs, etc... are grossly underpaid. This means oftentimes crappy care takers are hired and they don't do their job. Its not just about a job either... its someone's life, dignity, etc. And what good care takers there are... they don't want to deal with someone this difficult. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, this poor man... and many others like him, go without proper care and comfort.
 @Susan Wensel Yeah....but EVERY worker?Â
 @Kristina Raymond  @Susan Wensel If you note, I didn't say every worker - in fact, I said not all workers are like that. However, I also know that many of them want to do things their way and get very annoyed when the family tells them to do things differently. They will label the family as difficult - and make all kinds of claims (many untrue) about them.
So Mary keeps firing the good people coming to help, and complains about it. Â Sure, clerical error accounts for other issues, but let's get this straight. Â Mary needs help too, in the same way her husband needs it.
 @ETSubmariner You're probably right. She looks darned frail - probably barely able to take care of her own needs and basic housekeeping, let alone look after her husband. Maybe Meals on Wheels could help? There must be some social service agencies that could help *her* so that she would better be able to function.
 @Silvia  @ETSubmariner Silvia to be honest my parents are in a similar situation states away from me and fired Meals on Wheels because they didn't like the food. So instead they scrape together pancakes, baked potatoes, and other small things for meals because they're picky.Â
Warmfrost's comment is the most sane I think I've ever read regarding this issue. Over 90% of health care costs are spent in the last 6 months of life - most on the elderly whose family just will not 'let go'. We do not deal with death very graciously in this country fighting to hang on, using every extraordinary means possible at astronomical costs....and they still die. This is the primary reason Medicare is being rapidly depleted and the primary reason we need a more serious discussion regarding end of life options that allows a more gentle - and less costly - move into death where we ALL must eventually go.
I do not understand the fear of death you see in some people. That it is a horrible thing to happen to someone. Death is part of the life cycle. It is inevitable, it will happen regardless of your emotional entanglement with it. Some people will fight like heck to stay alive out of that fear, they will do anything to prolong their pulse at all costs. That is their choice. It is also the choice of others who have no such fear and are accepting of the consequences of illness. I am very familiar with the healthcare industry and the devastating toll the pharmaceuticals used to "cure" some diseases. If there is a less than favorable outcome to a disease prognosis, I would rather enjoy the time I have left, be kept comfortable and as pain free as possible rather than go through painful treatments that have a better than average chance of killing me faster than the disease does. My paperwork IS in order and I am perfectly ok with passing on. I have plenty of things to live for, but there are some costs i will not pay to live for them. Elspeth, find your peace with death. It's not the end of the world and I firmly believe it is not the end of us.Â
 @ytboarder he isn't dead yet and they are not talking about extraordinary care such as chemotherapy and surgeries. Do you expect this man to be starved to death? Or do you advocate murdering him? he has to be bathed, fed, have diapers changed, feeding tubes and respiration tubes cleaned and maintained. He has to be repositioned in bed to avoid bed sores. he needs companionship and humanity.
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Your post suggests that he should just be killed off because his care will cost too much. Frankly that is monsterous and tells me all I will ever need to know about you.
 @elspeth:Â
What the hell are you talking about??? The man in this story does NOT require "feeding tubes & respiration tubes" - he is able to take foods orally (his wife is shown feeding ihim AND helping him drink liquid in the video clip), and he is on a nasal canula for O2 - which is NOT a "respiration tube". At least get your facts straight befpore spouting them.
 @Elspeth  @ytboarder I think people should be in control of their own lives.  NOT you or me.  I'm just telling you not to impose your will on me.  My family knows how I feel, and I believe I've raised my children enough to respect that.  I live my life to the fullest every day.  No regrets.  Don't make what's written in my heart evil cause it's not what you believe. Â
 @Elspeth  @ytboarder You are wrong.  You have not read all my comments.  If that is what her husband wanted, then whatever he wanted should be done.  My dad said that when he couldn't eat, he wanted left alone.  These are choices people should be making about their own health care.  My point is if you have feelings about end of life issues - document them.
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I changed my dad's diapers. Â I picked him up off the floor. Â I fed him every day for 4 years. Â I loved him, and defended his being done. Â It wasn't about my will. Â It was about how my dad wanted to die. Â That's not up to you, or me.
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My Uncle died about 2 years ago of a brain tumor. Â If he had it removed, they said he would have lived a few more years. Â He chose to go. Â He died peacefully. Â He died the way he wanted - NOT the way you wanted.
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These are choices people make every day.  If you have feeling about your own health care - DOCUMENT IT.  I DO NOT want tube feeding.  I do not want curative care when I am at the end of my life.  I want palliative care. Â
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And before you judge me, know I'm OK if you feel differently. Â I just don't want your beliefs about end of life imposed on me.
 @warmfrost:Â
".... My Uncle died about 2 years ago of a brain tumor. If he had it removed, they said he would have lived a few more years. He chose to go. He died peacefully. He died the way he wanted - NOT the way you wanted ...."
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OMG - this is almost exactly the same as my unlce - he had not been feeling well, they did exploratory surgery - found advanced liver cancer. He chose to have pallative care, and died peacefully at home with his family.
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It's all about the way people WANT to leave this world. It's really the last thing they have any personal control over. It should ALWAYS be their decision.
 @Warmfrost About the same senerio happened to my mother a few years back, she was 77 and really tired of all the stuff they were doing to her (pacemakers, angiograms, etc.) to keep her hanging on for a year or so at best,  the cure was worse for her than the cause, which was old age, my brother insisted the doctors do all they could to sustain her life against her wishes, she told the family, "I'm tired and I would like to go to rest, and in the end her wishes were followed, she hung on for 4 days with my sister laying next to her bed with her fingers on her wrist checking for a pulse all nights and most of the day, not to say they did not keep her comfortable in her last days, she left this earth in peace, the way she wanted to leave it.
 @Elspeth  @ytboarder Chemotherapy wouldn't help this man. He has PD, not cancer. Surgery *might* have helped him at one point, but I'm pretty sure he's too far advanced for that, in terms of age and medical condition.
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I agree with your post, though - well said!
 @ytboarder I'm telling you, ytboarder... if you don't have your wishes documented, it is sometimes out of your hands.  EVERYONE: If you don't want people hooking you up to a bizillion things, and traumatizing your body as you're leaving this earth - GET YOUR PAPERWORK IN ORDER.  Talk about things that are hard to talk about, and let people know how you feel.  Otherwise... maybe your spouse will assume you want to lie demented and helpless in a bed, and busting your sternum with CPR, and shoving tubes down your throat.  It happens every day.
 @Warmfrost  @ytboarder It does, and some people find those years to be most rewarding, for both the patient and the caregiver. Did you ever read "The Five Silent Years of Corrie ten Boom"? I'm pretty sure she didn't have a DNR - they wouldn't have had them in those days. So for *5 years* she was unable to care for herself, unable to talk. But she gave so much to those around her during those years. They were far from wasted.
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I think we need to be careful in this enviornment, especially, that we not let people think we're accepting "mercy killing". It can be a slippery slope once we start talking palliative care (and yes, I've been involved in hospice, palliative care in my own family. I support it - but cautiously).
 @Silvia I hadn't read that, Silvia, thanks for the heads up. I'm all the more horrified, because I read about her younger years where she waited, alone and lonely,  years for her "fiance" to come back from school or wherever he'd gone, only to have him return married to someone else acting all cheerful and nonchalant like she should be thrilled for him.Â
My dad had Parkinson's Disease for 18 years, and died in 2007. Â The last 4 years got pretty intense, but me and Mom did all the caregiving (except when he broke his hip in 2004, and needed 3 months of respite care) until Hospice stepped in for 3 time weekly visits the last month of his life. Â
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I did this while homeschooling my children, and working outside the home full time during the evenings. Â I'm not bragging, I'm saying that things follow a course, and if you flow with it... you don't have people hooked up to feeding tubes, and IV's and humiliating them for months, if not years because "you don't want to lose them". Â People die, and part of life is the grace we, too, deal with loss. Â We live in very artificial world that tries to sell that the health care system can fix anything that goes wrong. Â It's a lie; it's a business.
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Take care of yourself. Exercise. Â Eat right. Â Have a good attitude. Forgive. Â Volunteer. Â And when it's your time to go, quit acting like everyone else is supposed to fix things.
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I'm 50, and I've already got my POLST handled. Â It's not about wanting to die; but People - death is a fact of life. Â Get over yourself.
Oh, and my mom worked full time, too. Â She worked days, and I worked evenings.
 @Warmfrost I'm sorry for your loss, but...your mom was likely younger than this woman is - I'm assuming that, since she worked full time outside the home. She also had you for support - Mary may not have support from their family. Also, every marriage is different - sounds like this couple has had a uniquely close relationship, so Mary may not have your perspective on life.
 @elspeth:Â
How dare you? And who are you to judge ANYONE?Â
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DNR's are something that everybody should consider & decide on their own whether or not they want.Â
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I am relatively young (51) and relatively healthy. I have had a DNR in my medical records, on file with both my PCP & my specialists that I see since I was 49.Â
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I believe that it is QUALITY of life that matters, not quantity - and many times, when people are put through "heroic efforts" to resussitate them, they end up suffering more harm than good. It had nothing to do with cancer rates, survival rates, or your opinion - it is between that person & their faily and caregivers ONLY.
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AND, despite your saying so, there would be no "mandatory autopsy". Autopsyies are only performed when it is a death under suspicious circumstances, or it is a homicide or suicide.
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I worked as a CNA for over 10 years, and taking care of patients who were older with demensia and parkinsons, seeing their quality of life detgeriorate, seeing them not "see" their loved ones, not know who they are or recognize them, seeing them slowly slip into themselves day by day & become a living vegitable - that is NOT something I want for myself, not do I wish to inflicyt it upon my family, having seen what it did to the families of my patients.
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You mention "minor heart attack, choking on a piece of food" - from that I do not believe you even know what a DNR really is, what it means, what it entails. Perhaps rather than calling someone a coward for having one, you should educate yourself about what exactly it is.
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A DNR means that if only extraordinary and/or heroic efforts are what it would take to KEEP you alive, that they are not to do so. Examples would be shocking someone back to life, CPR or intubation.  It is NOT the Heimlich manuever for someone who is choking, or performing CPR on someone who drops on the street from a heart attack. It is also referred to as an AND order (Allow Natural Death) - which is exactly what it is all about.
A "Do Not Resusitate" or "DNR" does not affect any treatment other than which would require intubation or cpr, Â patients who are dnr can continue to get chemo, antibiotics, dialysis or any appropriate treatment.
 @Elspeth You do not know me, and you do not know my family.  You really just reduced yourself to name calling based on the fact that you feel differently about MY DNR.  Incredible.
 @Elspeth You have a valid point in somethings, what you said happened to my father-in-law, he requested NO HEROICS, then had a heart attack, but his daughter went against his wishes and the heroics saved his life, he was so grateful that his daughter insisted on that once he recovered, but Warmfrost has a valid point also, it doesn't hurt to have your affairs in order, you never know what will happen, and how bad it will get, if you don't care what happens to you, so be it, but should we really burden our family to make such a decision for us if it comes down to that?
 @Elspeth I didn't say I don't want the heimlich maneuver.  I said I want left alone if my I'm not breathing, and my heart stops.  Your calling me a coward does not effect me at all.
 @Warmfrost so you have a terminal illness? Or you are suicidal? I have never understood signing a DNR when one is not terminal. The fact of the matter is that MOST illness can be recovered from. Even most cancer has a better that 75% 5 years survival rate. But signing a DNR means that if you have a seizure from a high fever and your heart stops you die...even if you would have otherwise lived with just CPR.
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that is neither brave nor kind to your family. There would be a mandatory autopsy in that type of situation and your family would KNOW that absent that DNR you WOULD have survived.
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A minor heart attack. Choking on a piece of food. Hundreds upon hundreds of conditions that you would have survived and gone on to live decades to see your children's weddings and grandchildren's births.Â
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Coward
 @Olivia You are SO right.
 @Warmfrost You are absolutely right, I will see him again, and yes he would want that, but it's hard to do sometimes, death is our enemy, but I would trade places with him in a heartbeat if that was possible, children aren't suppose to die before their parents, but it happens all the time, which is very, very sad, I guess I got a double whammy, my son passed away just 3 months after my younger sister (51)  thank you for being so kind, and putting up with my rants...
 @Olivia Nothing wrong with off topic.  I'm just reminding you of what you already know:  Your son would want YOU living your life happily.  I know you will see your son again.  It's the waiting that's hard.
 @Warmfrost Thank you, that's very kind of you to say, I may have not been clear as to what I was trying to get across, or maybe what I'm saying should be reserved for another forum, my son was 39, he died of pneumonia, which he didn't have to, it was lack of the Doctors doing all they could to save him, first they gave him MRSA from the intubation tube they forced on him, and then put him in a coma and said...oh well let nature take it's course, he was alert and awake when he went to the hospital, and he did not nor had he ever ask DSHS for help, he had 2 different kinds of insurance, so that was not an excuse for the incompetent care he received, sorry to go on & on, really getting off the subject now, sorry.
 @Olivia **inflicted on them by others**  I get to typing too fast.  ha ha
 @Olivia I am so sorry about your son.  I have not been there, but have helped two friends through the unthinkable.  Yet... I do hope if one of my children is ever in that position... that  I do what you can, keep things as peaceful as can be manufactured, and not dwell on the scenarios that were missed.  Your son would never have wanted you to stew. Â
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It might not matter, but my Great Grandmother was interviewed by a family member back in 1969. Â She was telling the story of losing her first child; a daughter that was 2 years old, to Meningitis. Â This was between 1904 and 1906. Â What was interesting about the interview (to me) was her wording. Â She said the doctor had come to the house in the snow, and that by the time he got there, the baby was "twisted". Â The doctor said they could save her, but she would be permanently affected. Â My Great Grandmother said that would have been cruel, and they chose to let her go. Â That could not have been easy. Â Yet, I think often how our health care culture, perception, and social norms have changed. Â I'm not always so sure that progress is progress.
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Regardless of a situation, though - I think a persons wishes should be respected. Â If someone is 94, and WANTSÂ resuscitation - they should have it. Â For most people, it is inflected by them from others.
 @Warmfrost That's very true...life does go on and as hard as it is to do sometimes, we have to try and go with it, you sound like a very strong woman and that's admirable, I on the other hand am not that strong when it comes to others, myself, I don't care, throw me in a box in the back yard,  we all lose a loved one sooner or later, that is a fact, mother, father, siblings, but when it comes to one losing a child, that is a  total different pain no one can imagine unless they have been threw it, it was easier for me to "let go" when my parents passed away, but not my son, I live everyday wondering about the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" and if there was more I could have done, just because one is elderly, infirmed, etc. does not mean they are disposable and not entitled to the best care they can get.
 @Warmfrost Thank you! I am a patient at Swedish neurosciences - they have terrific treatment for both ET and PD people. They are very compassionate, very skilled.
 @Olivia The flip side of the coin is that I believe it's tragic to put a dying body through that trauma.  It is trauma - believe me.Â
 @Silvia I pray your blessings continue!  :-D
 @Warmfrost Thank you. My situation is currently under control - I've had surgery (DBS), and life is wonderful! But I'm aware that in time, my symptoms may spread, so the surgery may not do the job. I know people with advanced disease - life can be pretty rough for them. But - I will not die from this, and I will not develop the ugly symptoms that people with PD have. I am blessed!
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 @Olivia Dad is gone, but he did it beautifully... and so did my mom.  Dad was ready to go in April of 2007, but it took till August till mom gave him "permission".Â
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All I can tell you is I'm 50, and my DNR is in order, and EVERYONE I know, knows how I feel about life sustaining treatment.  I eat right, take care of myself as much as possible... and nobody who's scared of losing me better resuscitate me if I drop, or choose to fade (depending on circumstances) a little more quickly.  ...And I'm in love with my husband, and my children are da bomb... and life WILL go on without me.
 @Silvia I wish you the grace, and peace my dad had.  He tried quite a number of Parkinson's medications, but always said he preferred the symptoms of Parkinson's to the side effects he perceived from the medications.  So, he died pretty medication free.  It's like he waltzed with Parkinson's... and I only wish someday - that whatever I face, I can do it with the smile, and dignity he did. Â
 @Warmfrost I sincerely hope your loved ones are still with you, I can't speak for everyone, but it is darn hard to let a loved one go, I have lost a mother, father, sister and a son, and I fought all the way to keep them alive, it may be easy for some to let them go, but I will always believe if we didn't try, that's tragic in itself.
 @Warmfrost I should add that I have a movement disorder that is similar in some ways to PD. So sometimes I "hang" in the same circles that PD people do.
 @Warmfrost Part of love is letting go, but Mary may not understand that. Anyway, what is she supposed to do - kill him? I mean "euthanize" him - that's the "nice" way of saying it...anyway, I know PD, but not like you do - it isn't a quick and "easy" passing, for most people, is it? Depending on the symptoms that a person has, and how effective the medications are, life can drag on.
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I've seen PD patients and their caregivers - talked to them, spent time with them. Many of them have special relationships that the rest of us can barely fathom. I admire all of them, for handling the disease in the way that they do.
 @Silvia I remember when my Dad broke his hip in 2004, and Mom headed out to try and come up with a wheelchair.  Dad sat across the room from me and said, "Your mom is a wonderful person."  "I know Dad", I said.  He started crying and said, "I think she's the most wonderful person I've ever met." Â
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Regardless of love, of admiration, of closeness... part of love is letting go.