High Court to hear challenge to logging road rules

GRANTS PASS, Ore. (AP) — The U.S. Supreme Court will decide whether to switch gears on more than 30 years of regulating the muddy water running off logging roads into rivers.
At issue: Should the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency keep considering it the same as water running off a farm field, or start looking at it like a pipe coming out of a factory?
The case being heard Monday in Washington, D.C., was originated by a small environmental group in Portland, the Northwest Environmental Defense Center.
It sued the Oregon Department of Forestry over roads on the Tillamook State Forest that drain into salmon streams. The lawsuit argued that the Clean Water Act specifically says water running through the kinds of ditches and culverts built to handle storm water runoff from logging roads is a point source of pollution when it flows directly into a river, and requires the same sort of permit that a factory needs.
"We brought this out of a perceived sense of unfairness," said Mark Riskedahl, director of the center. "Every other industrial sector across the country had to get this sort of permit for stormwater discharge," and the process has been very effective at reducing pollution.
The pollution running off logging roads, most of them gravel or dirt, is primarily muddy water stirred up by trucks. Experts have long identified sediment dumped in streams as harmful to salmon and other fish.
The center lost in U.S. District Court in Portland, but won in the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. The Oregon Department of Forestry and Georgia Pacific-West appealed to the Supreme Court, and 31 states threw in with them.
The timber industry wants to keep things the way they are, with no permits for roads built under a system of best management practices. They contend requiring permits would cost timberland owners and logging companies too much money and thousands of jobs.
"EPA has been absolutely clear since 1976 in its rules and briefs explaining those rules and what it has done," said timber industry lawyer Timothy Bishop."Never once has it required a permit for discharges from forest service roads. It has been absolutely clear that is a bad idea."
The Obama administration petitioned the Supreme Court not to take the case, arguing that while the appeals court ruling was wrong, Congress and EPA were taking steps to correct the situation already.
Last May, EPA formally proposed to revise storm water regulations to say logging roads don't need the point-source pollution permits that factories must get, and has gone ahead despite the court's decision to take the case. Congress enacted a temporary continuation of the status quo.
Jeffrey Fisher, a professor at Stanford Law School and co-director of its Supreme Court Litigation Clinic, is arguing the case for environmentalists. He said the court took the case after 31 states joined the timber industry in petitioning for appeal.
He said the Clean Water Act requires industrial activity to get a permit for stormwater that runs through ditches, pipes and channels.
" Industrialized logging operations with all the heavy machinery that takes place on lands at issue here is, we think, pretty clearly industrial in nature," he said. "That's the end of the case, right there."
Bishop said regulations developed by EPA and enforced by the states without permits have done a great job since 1976, and changing them to require EPA to issue permits would cost too much in jobs and money.
The National Alliance of Forest Owners commissioned studies that concluded new permits would cost landowners and logging operators nationwide upwards of $1.1 billion in administrative costs.
Riskedahl said the timber industry has grossly exaggerated the costs. Each state can issue blanket permits to cover national forests, state forests, and private timberlands, as well as the logging and trucking companies that operate on them. It would be similar to the permit the Oregon Department of Transportation already has for state highways. Cleaning up the water requires low-tech solutions, such as putting roads on ridges, so ditches flow to the forest floor, instead of rivers.
"There is a cost to corporate entities to comply with the permits. The result is pollution reduction and jobs for local companies (working on logging roads)," he said.
In legal terms, Bishop said the three judges from the 9th Circuit ignored court rules that they should defer to the expertise of the regulating agency, EPA, which has consistently found logging road runoff is a non-point source of pollution, Bishop said. In 1976 it adopted the Silvicultural Rule, exempting logging from point-source permits.
At issue: Should the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency keep considering it the same as water running off a farm field, or start looking at it like a pipe coming out of a factory?
The case being heard Monday in Washington, D.C., was originated by a small environmental group in Portland, the Northwest Environmental Defense Center.
It sued the Oregon Department of Forestry over roads on the Tillamook State Forest that drain into salmon streams. The lawsuit argued that the Clean Water Act specifically says water running through the kinds of ditches and culverts built to handle storm water runoff from logging roads is a point source of pollution when it flows directly into a river, and requires the same sort of permit that a factory needs.
"We brought this out of a perceived sense of unfairness," said Mark Riskedahl, director of the center. "Every other industrial sector across the country had to get this sort of permit for stormwater discharge," and the process has been very effective at reducing pollution.
The pollution running off logging roads, most of them gravel or dirt, is primarily muddy water stirred up by trucks. Experts have long identified sediment dumped in streams as harmful to salmon and other fish.
The center lost in U.S. District Court in Portland, but won in the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. The Oregon Department of Forestry and Georgia Pacific-West appealed to the Supreme Court, and 31 states threw in with them.
The timber industry wants to keep things the way they are, with no permits for roads built under a system of best management practices. They contend requiring permits would cost timberland owners and logging companies too much money and thousands of jobs.
"EPA has been absolutely clear since 1976 in its rules and briefs explaining those rules and what it has done," said timber industry lawyer Timothy Bishop."Never once has it required a permit for discharges from forest service roads. It has been absolutely clear that is a bad idea."
The Obama administration petitioned the Supreme Court not to take the case, arguing that while the appeals court ruling was wrong, Congress and EPA were taking steps to correct the situation already.
Last May, EPA formally proposed to revise storm water regulations to say logging roads don't need the point-source pollution permits that factories must get, and has gone ahead despite the court's decision to take the case. Congress enacted a temporary continuation of the status quo.
Jeffrey Fisher, a professor at Stanford Law School and co-director of its Supreme Court Litigation Clinic, is arguing the case for environmentalists. He said the court took the case after 31 states joined the timber industry in petitioning for appeal.
He said the Clean Water Act requires industrial activity to get a permit for stormwater that runs through ditches, pipes and channels.
" Industrialized logging operations with all the heavy machinery that takes place on lands at issue here is, we think, pretty clearly industrial in nature," he said. "That's the end of the case, right there."
Bishop said regulations developed by EPA and enforced by the states without permits have done a great job since 1976, and changing them to require EPA to issue permits would cost too much in jobs and money.
The National Alliance of Forest Owners commissioned studies that concluded new permits would cost landowners and logging operators nationwide upwards of $1.1 billion in administrative costs.
Riskedahl said the timber industry has grossly exaggerated the costs. Each state can issue blanket permits to cover national forests, state forests, and private timberlands, as well as the logging and trucking companies that operate on them. It would be similar to the permit the Oregon Department of Transportation already has for state highways. Cleaning up the water requires low-tech solutions, such as putting roads on ridges, so ditches flow to the forest floor, instead of rivers.
"There is a cost to corporate entities to comply with the permits. The result is pollution reduction and jobs for local companies (working on logging roads)," he said.
In legal terms, Bishop said the three judges from the 9th Circuit ignored court rules that they should defer to the expertise of the regulating agency, EPA, which has consistently found logging road runoff is a non-point source of pollution, Bishop said. In 1976 it adopted the Silvicultural Rule, exempting logging from point-source permits.
What's the point of monitoring runoff near the freeways and having environmental regs on businesses near a rivers outflow if logging trucks and equipment is sloughing off effluent at the river's source? Â Asking the logging companies to keep their equipment maintained--their seals changed, their lubricants and hydraulic fluids contained is not particularly onerous, and the loggers who maintain their equipment (read, the responsible and most successful logging companies) won't be affected nearly as much as the guys who take broken down outdated equipment into the woods.
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All the "sky is falling" types are probably the lazy ones who abuse and don't maintain their stuff.
Let's see lost in Federal Court in Portland. Then turned around at the 9th. What are the odds of this being overturned by the Supreme Court ? My guess 100%Â
all they have to do is show what they did to the elwa river with the 30 Billion cubic feet of silt that chocked the salmon beds. and say the EPA alowed that. A logging road does nothing compaired to that!
"We brought this out of a perceived sense of unfairness," said Mark Riskedahl,
Can we all say NOT... This group has nothing to with "fairness". They want all logging banded. They want us all living in mud huts or yurts. This is all smoke and mirrors and I hope the courts see through it for what they truly intend. Â Â
Tons and ton of logging roads up in the Calapooya mountains of Oregon,located in the Umpqua national forest.. Brice Creek..Alex Creek..Layng creek ,Row river..Sharps Creek.. etc etc..many many many creeks flowing off these logged mountains..Non of which..ever turn muddy even in the highest winter runoff..Now why is that?non of these creeks ever go thru a reservoir up where they start ..logging roads run right by em..Once they drain into the reservoirs,,created by man..all that changes.. and then down stream, we get that high nasty muddy water..Any Creek running into the pacific ocean all down Oregon's coast line.. and I don't mean rivers.. Creeks .that harbor Salmon and Steelhead..Have never been mudded up..
@Whitehawk All they have to do is show what the EPA allowed to happen when they breached the dam on the Elwa river over 30 billion cubic tons of sill filled the salmon beds. The environmentalist said that was ok. Because dams are evil and that was good silt because they caused it. were as a little bit of silt from a logging road is bad silt because a logging is evil it kills tress.
Willamette river in Oregon.. goes thru Hills creek reservoir and Lookout point reservoir.. these reservoirs and all surrounding reservoirs that rivers or streams drain off into the willamette river, are all drained down in the winter..leaving nothing but mud flats..When its raining and raining hard..all that mud gets washed off into the mainstrean flowing thru these reservoirs.. next you know downstream past the dams..we have all this high muddy water..hmmmm. i wonder where that came from..Oh I know..it was from all the logging roads..
When... these envirowackos can provide clear concise photos of this really occurring ,is when I might even believe it,,Lived in Oregon all my life..run the coastal mountains all the time.. have yet to see logging roads have a runoff of mud into the coastal streams or rivers.. In winter..all rivers have sediment in the water that turns the water muddy and crappy..this runoff occur from everything along the banks of said river/stream//. look to the man made reservoirs for most of the mud flow.. as these reservoirs are carved out of areas that is nothing but straight mud walls..Why is it these wackos have to always blame logging?most logging roads in Wa and Or are gravel..
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@Whitehawk look at this photo from the eco freaks who breacked the dam on the Elwa 30 billion cubic tons of silt that chocked the salmon beds. If that is not bad for the river then a little road run off is ok. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=1024&bih=644&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=elwha+river+after+dam+removal+silt+flow&oq=elwha+river+after+dam+removal+silt+flow&gs_l=img.3...14734.18773.0.19247.10.1.0.9.0.0.218.218.2-1.1.0...0.0...1ac.1.kLL9p45otTo#biv=i|1;d|EaDg-o-5glv9uM:
Just another attempt to keep logging companies from building roads and harvesting one of our best renewable resources.
 @Boondoggler Have a look at Washington & Oregon using software like Google Earth from about 45 miles up. See if it looks like there's more 'harvesting' or more 'renewing'...the earth looks like it's got a bad case of road rash (and I'm not talking about the highways).
@Commenter87643 @Boondoggler Of course it does. That's because you have forests in different stages of growth. Take a look at pictures of Nebraska every month of the year and see what it looks like. Our trees are no different than Nebraska corn just a much longer growth cycle.
9th "Circus" Court of Appeals strikes again.
Just another example of how the left works on destroying family wage jobs by taking a little bit here and a little bit there.
 @matnes86 "The Obama administration petitioned the Supreme Court not to take the case, arguing that while the appeals court ruling was wrong,"
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Good it looks like we may be making headway here. So you agree that Obama is as much of a right winger as bush but is just acting like he cares for the working class?
sometimes the environment and our planet are worth the cost. you to live in a dirty a55 world, well move to mars because I'd like this place to be around for a few more years. If I were buying a brand new home or some new wood at Lowes to build a shed, i''d be MORE THAN WILLING to pay an extra 2% for the actual cost increase that this would cost.
@DylanJÂ You sure does not belong to the 99%.
Do you really think muddy logging roads are a threat to the planet? Come on!
 @James127 Would you drink water from the streams the mud runs into?
Have you ever looked at the erosion these roads can cause?
http://www.krisweb.com/watershd/roads.htm
http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st5/documents/Logging_Roads_and_Aquatic_Habitat_Protection_in_the_CA_Redwoods.pdf
 @JeepRex Having spent a good deal of the 60's and 70's hiking and climbing in the Cascades, I have drunk water out of mountain streams.
But I was always careful about what was upstream of where I got it. I've also been around logging roads and clear-cuts...and have seen some ugly polluted water trails from both. Remember, it's not just what you see in the water, it's also what you don't see. Runoff from roads and clear-cuts can contain minerals and organic materials that you really should try to avoid. And what's bad for people is worse for fish and wildlife who have little choice in the matter. Plus, mud that enters streams will - once it does settle - fill in the hollows and gaps in the stream-bed, which over time will cause the water to run faster because there will be fewer surfaces to slow it down - and that will cause the mud to go even further. Not only that, it will cover spawning areas the fish depend on to create the next generation.
And it's really not all that hard to take reasonable measures that reduce this impact greatly - leave vegetation on the surface to filter the runoff, build settlement sumps that break the flow of the runoff and allow the mud to settle out.
Runoff is a problem, but it can be controlled. Like requiring adequate prevention of unfiltered runoff from livestock sewage collection points or fields where a lot of cattle leave their "pies".
 @OrcasThunder Have you ever actually got out from behind your computer and drank from a stream? I have spent most of my life in the woods and I can tell you that about 100 yards or less downstream from a logging site, the water is fine to drink. There are already a ton of restrictions about building a road near a stream, as well as cutting trees close to a stream.
 @James127 "However, the earth does a great job at being a good filter"
Perhaps - but it does not do it because of humans...at some point the Earth may just filter us out as well as the oil and chemicals and radiation we dump without a care, and then forget.
"which is why I drink water pumped from deep in the ground."
Have you tried drinking the water from wells impacted by fracking lately? There are places in the mid-west where the once sweet water from old wells is now putrid swamp-water that will actually burn if you put a match to it.
And even a bucket can overflow from too many drops.
No, I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't drink the water near a septic system drainfield. However, the earth does a great job at being a good filter, which is why I drink water pumped from deep in the ground.
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As for erosion, look at what the eruption of Mt. St Helens did. The earth healed itself just fine. Logging roads are a drop in the bucket by comparison.
 @DylanJ Did you pull that 2% figure out of thin air?
Next time you take a crap, wipe your butt with the paperwork from this lawsuit.
It would be so nice, if just once, a company would take responsibility for it's actions. Just do the right thing. In the long run it will benefit you and this beautiful planet.
@Darn it! OK so those who breached the dam on the Elwa river and poured over 30 billion cubic tons of silt in to that river chocking the slamon beds was that a good thing or a band thing.
 @wynooheeman  @Darn So nearly 100 years of silt buildup blocked by the dam is supposed to be washed clean within a year?  In the long run letting the river do its thing will benefit the runs, even if the runs are damaged in the short run.