Business owners struggling to pay so-called 'dance tax'
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SEATTLE -- It takes two to tango, but it will take a majority of state lawmakers to get rid of what some call an archaic law that could force nightclubs all over the state to close.
Nightclubs, concert halls and even dance studios are feeling the heat. A handful of businesses across the city say they were slapped with six-figure bills, all because they should be charging extra to dance.
The owner of the Century Ballroom on Capitol Hill is trying to figure out how she's going to tango with the state.
"Dancing should not be something that's taxable," said owner Hallie Kuperman.
Kuperman is talking about the so-called "dance tax," a decades-old state law that says if a business charges for the "opportunity to dance," it needs to be collecting taxes.
Kuperman said she got a $250,000 bill from the state, which she said she can't afford.
"Of course we're responsible for our taxes, but nobody knew this tax existed," she said.
State officials see it otherwise and say the law has been on government websites since 1995.
"It kind of surprises me that people can say, 'We didn't know, nobody told us.' It's right there for everybody to see," said Mike Gowrylow of the state Department of Revenue.
The law has existed for decades, but that doesn't mean everyone understands it. Many people aren't even sure what kind of dancing is taxable. Other ask why not tax outdoor concerts such as Bumbershoot the same way you tax nightclubs?
"The reason you primarily go to a concert is to watch the concert," Gowrylow said. "The fact that somebody might get up and dance is not the main reason you're there."
Kuperman still owes the state about $90,000, but she's working with lawyers to see if she can somehow work out a compromise with the state.
State Sen. Ed Murray is sponsoring a bill that would life the tax entirely. He's trying to get a hearing on the issue as early as next week. In the meantime, the Century Ballroom is hosting a fundraiser next Saturday to make up the tens of thousands of dollars it still owes.
Nightclubs, concert halls and even dance studios are feeling the heat. A handful of businesses across the city say they were slapped with six-figure bills, all because they should be charging extra to dance.
The owner of the Century Ballroom on Capitol Hill is trying to figure out how she's going to tango with the state.
"Dancing should not be something that's taxable," said owner Hallie Kuperman.
Kuperman is talking about the so-called "dance tax," a decades-old state law that says if a business charges for the "opportunity to dance," it needs to be collecting taxes.
Kuperman said she got a $250,000 bill from the state, which she said she can't afford.
"Of course we're responsible for our taxes, but nobody knew this tax existed," she said.
State officials see it otherwise and say the law has been on government websites since 1995.
"It kind of surprises me that people can say, 'We didn't know, nobody told us.' It's right there for everybody to see," said Mike Gowrylow of the state Department of Revenue.
The law has existed for decades, but that doesn't mean everyone understands it. Many people aren't even sure what kind of dancing is taxable. Other ask why not tax outdoor concerts such as Bumbershoot the same way you tax nightclubs?
"The reason you primarily go to a concert is to watch the concert," Gowrylow said. "The fact that somebody might get up and dance is not the main reason you're there."
Kuperman still owes the state about $90,000, but she's working with lawyers to see if she can somehow work out a compromise with the state.
State Sen. Ed Murray is sponsoring a bill that would life the tax entirely. He's trying to get a hearing on the issue as early as next week. In the meantime, the Century Ballroom is hosting a fundraiser next Saturday to make up the tens of thousands of dollars it still owes.
Rediculious tax. I'd like to meet the moron who implemented this and thump them in the head.
This why we need an ammendment at both the state and federal level that every LAW that is not part of an amendment, and every TAX needs to have a "sunset" clause attached to it. And nothing can be more than say 10 years for example.
Then after so many years the law or tax comes up for review, if it still applies then it can be renewed by vote. If not then it can be shelved and a new law or tax can be voted on to take its place.
The article states-----
"State Sen. Ed Murray is sponsoring a bill that would life the tax entirely."
Should that read lift, verses life???????
This expectedly sensationalist article makes it seem like no one knew about this tax and now lots of clubs will have to close. From q13fox.com: "The Department of Revenue said that for years, most dance venues in Washington have been in compliance with the âopportunity to danceâ tax. Forty-four businesses were audited a couple of years ago, and of the 44, only about eight were in violation of the law. The state said it is willing to work out payment systems with those dance venues."
The state will do anything for a few extra bucks. I'm tired of it. Why people keep electing these same idiots is beyond me.Â
I don't think you could really call it 'dancing' nowadays...
After listening for decades of this State's tale of woe when it comes to tax revenue, I want to know why this state hasn't been pursuing this source of revenue since 1995 or whenever?
The fact that it has been on a website since 1995 and has not been collected tells me that some government employee or employees have dropped the ball and need to be sent walking.
Years ago when a judge overturned one of the voter initiatives regarding vehicle tabs it didn't take the state only a few days to send me a bill for the difference. But then when that got overturned it took a long time to get our money back.
Now the same goof balls what their uncollected tax dollars now? Trying to put employers out of business in this economy?
@AKjohn It tells me that the tax code is so complicated that even the officials that specialize in this aren't able to properly collect the taxes.  It's time to simply tax code across the board for complete transparency.
"...since 1995...." the state has been screwing the citizen since long before that. Another instances of Mal-governance.
One day I would like to see a news organization launch an investigation on how the Department of Revenue extorts taxes and penalties from otherwise law abiding businesses. I have personal knowledge of how rogue and corrupt this department is. Is it that KOMO, KING and KIRO are afraid of this department? I completely understand, it would be like investigating the IRS. Since DOR has little to do with the public, there is not a lot of outcry about their practices. Maybe we should have an income tax, then everyone will see. These dance clubs have an uphill battle and will spend thousands on lawyers, but good luck to you.
Gee, this just doesn't sound like the Washington state I know and love.... sarc.
@mlbs http://t.co/nZavKh3j
I'm no math whizz, but I'm pretty sure a law from 1995 is not "decades old."
@lakeview It's been on government web sites since 1995. But what the article doesn't state is that it's been on the books for nearly 50 years.
@lakeview You are correct, "...I'm no math whizz..."Â 2013 -1995 = 18 years - thats' dam close to 2 decades.
This was probably one of those laws that got pushed through at the end of a 700 page transportation bill. That is a problem with the way they pass these bills because in order to get votes to pass them they allow these things to be added to gain the votes needed. In other words you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. A bill should address one issue not 15. This tax should be axed. If these people are forced out of business they will loose all other taxes paid by said business too.  Bunch of crap.
@Jatok Agree! I think you should take your wise, sage, wisdom to Olympia, just to watch law makers scratch their heads. Is there a song we can dance to called "Duh?"
@Jatok I agree with you 100% about bills should only address one issue. Actually, I think they did recently pass a law regarding that here in WA. The same thing needs to happen in DC. If it isn't good enough to stand on its own then it shouldn't happen.Â
"It kind of surprises me that people can say, 'We didn't know, nobody told us.' It's right there for everybody to see," said Mike Gowrylow of the state Department of Revenue.
I sounds to me like the Dept of Rev didn't know about it either, until they went looking for ways to obtain more money.
@here_I_go_again Yeah, because club owners and operators of venues where people might dance in a wedding reception scoured books to check if a person tapping their foot to music could be taxed.
At least when someone grabs your wallet or breaks into your house, they're upfront and bold about taking from you. Any revenue department has tricksy ways, all of them legal.Â
Every state (and country) has its share of ancient, or just decades old, absurd laws that certainly don't fit in modern times. In some places in the US, women aren't permitted to wear skirts. Laws like that probably date from pre-civil war era. Enforcing them now is stupid and doesn't do anyone any good.Â
For a bit of a laugh, Graham Norton did a bit on one such dumb, ridiculous, outdated law (NSFW) :Â http://youtu.be/YciEXJ0FKD0
Are you serious?? This tax stuff is outrageous. A dance tax wow. Maybe lets have a dance party outside the IRS office where ever that is!!Â
"They" had to have found "another giant hole they need to fill... pathetic Legit business owner trying to keep above water..Â
This is another example of why we should have a âSunsetâ rule in place.If the law is not renewed every 10 years, it drops off.A printed copy of all the current state laws âon the booksâ would likely stretch for 10 feet or more if bound and put on one shelf. That is just stupid.No one can possibly know, yet obey all those laws.
This would be funny if it wasn't such a blatant money grab by the state....pathetic.
Ok, it's been on the "books" since 1995. And exactly why is it only NOW the businesses are getting their tax "bill"?Â
What is this??!?! 1957!!!!Â
"that would life the tax entirely."? Â Lift the tax?
How much is this tax per person? Ok KOMO tell us more about the tax, and what it is collected on. Is it a sales tax on cover charges?
@rockguy It's a percentage, not a flat tax.
Wow. Only in Washington state will you have to pay a fee to DANCE, yet until recently (The Great Ken Pinion Incident) you could have sex with animals, it was legal, and tax exempt. I'd like to hope that only OUR state is that ignorant, but if you look at the "Higher Thinkers" in Washington D.C.......they're all just as sneaky and greedy as our "representatives" we have here. Our government needs an enema. Flush out all of that old, leftover crap, and start fresh with people who will LISTEN to us, and stop with all of this absurd nonsense.
Collectively, we asked for this, agreeing to tax ourselves, via the elected officials we chose, to achieve utopia. Never considering at some point in time we'd have to pay for the overspending. Shame.
@thatsmithgirl We agree to be taxed for reasonable sums, and for reasonable purposes. Tax car tabs at a reasonable fee to help fund highway maintaince we need, not something like put a $3 tax on the $5 car wash to help fund state employees' new vehicles.
Every day I have less and less respect for this government "of the people, for the people, and by the people". The inequities and stupidity is beyond anything I could imagine.
Btw, the typical woman's waist in the 1960's was 24" but one girl in our neighborhood had a 21" waist. People used 9" dinner plates, about "salad" size now and a McDonald's meal was the size of their current "mini meal". Try one for a retrospective idea of what a full meal should actually be!
People were much more active (only 3 TV stations, and news for 1/2 hour - 15 minutes for local news and 15 for national news). Overweight people were pretty rare and almost nonexistent in kids.Â
Maybe we should implement a "non-dance" tax instead! LOL!
@Juliana I wasn't That Girl but I did have a 21" waist until I was pregnant in my early 20's. The Twist was a popular dance then and could have contributed to the small waist. We didn't snack as much then and you are right, meals were smaller. I walked to and from school anywhere from a mile to two, depending on grade, middle or high school. We didn't have school busses. I still have a 24" waist.
They should be giving insurance discounts to people who dance on a regular basis. It's good for the body and mind. Â
Way too funny for Saturday AM. I'm snorting coffee out my nose.Â
What other totally archaic laws on the books will be enforced? Is it still illegal for a woman to sit at the bar for a drink? What about public spitting?Â
I'd actually like that one to get some recognition. Maybe we can get ourselves some spit police who will ticket everyone in the vicinity of Pioneer Square. Â Oops, not much revenue there. OK, get some state spit police for Bellevue and raise some revenue.Â
Now.
How about Political fund raisers where they charge $10k plus per plate and have dancing in the ball rooms? Looks like many of the politicians should also be getting a bill from themselves.
Thank Tim Eyman for his fine work. Now the state is looking for anything on the books already that it can raise revenue out of. probably some gems from the 19th century still there that can be enforced again. This is what happens when people don't want to pay for anything but want services the state is supposed to provide.Â
@Citizen#3457899654 TD, citizen. If it wasn't for Tim Eyman, we'd still be paying an inflated excise tax on our cars. When his initiative ended that, I was being taxed for a car worth$10,000.00 (retail) at the state's determined value of it being worth $14,000.00. So, hopefully you can see, the government can come up with any formula, rate, tax, or fee they choose to. And this 'dance tax' is just another scam placed upon us taxpayers. And, it is a detriment to business.
If you like paying taxes, then perhaps you should literally boogie on down to the DOR and make a contribution.
@Citizen#3457899654
Tim only offers the voters a choice.They can vote for or against the initiatives he writes and circulates.The majority of the voters are what makes those initiatives fact, not Tim.The majority of the voters want to curb spending.Our so called representatives arenât listening.
@Citizen#3457899654Â You sound like a Marxist. Â The state would be doing this regardless of Tim, and don't forget the citizens are on Tim's side. Â They have voted for most of his proposals. Â
How long have you hated democracy?
I Thank Tim everyday. I was tired of overpaying for vehical tabs.
I am also tired of lawmakers only answer is to raise taxes. Tax increases should only be a last resort, agreeable by all, not just a simple majority.
Only those who live on the system or are employed by the system think more taxes is a good idea.
@TCat As a citizen of Washington, I never vote on any of that dolt's ideas, or anything he is paid to endorse, push, and be a goober about. Most people here cannot stand him.
@Hadrian
I take it you donât like the nationâs interstate road system because of who came up with the ideaâ¦â¦.
Most people cannot stand him and you have statistics to back that up? He's about choice. He can't put these laws into force unless the majority votes for them.
I'd like to see a good lawyer go after the legislature for "dancing" around the budget.
To me it's the way the state decided to collect the taxes that bugs me.
It would be one thing, if after the first year of a nightclub's operation, that state comes along and says "hey, sorry to bug you, but we actually have a dance tax you didn't pay, can you please make sure to do so from here out?"
Instead, the state decides to shuffle up, 15 years later, claiming "um, hey, so we kind of need money. There's this dance tax you haven't paid in the last 15 years. Fork it all over!"
Every time I see pics of old businesses with folks eating or dancing, I rarely see fat people. Today, you have to search for slender people. Indeed the US has become an obese society. Are we really smarter or just fatter? Did you look at yourself lately compared to that 30 year old photo?
@Socialjusticeforall "Are we really smarter or just fatter? Did you look at yourself lately compared to that 30 year old photo?"
We are just fatter. I weigh less now than I did in high school and I wasn't overweight then. But then, I loved to go dancing.Â