Legalized marijuana could be tax windfall, but skeptics abound

DENVER (AP) - A catchy pro-marijuana jingle for Colorado voters considering legalizing the drug goes like this: "Jobs for our people. Money for schools. Who could ask for more?"
It's a bit more complicated than that in the three states — Colorado, Oregon and Washington — that could become the first to legalize marijuana this fall.
The debate over how much tax money recreational marijuana laws could produce is playing an outsize role in the campaigns for and against legalization — and both sides concede they're not really sure what would happen.
At one extreme, pro-pot campaigners say it could prove a windfall for cash-strapped states with new taxes on pot and reduced criminal justice costs.
At the other, state government skeptics warn legalization would lead to costly legal battles and expensive new bureaucracies to regulate marijuana.
In all three states asking voters to decide whether residents can smoke pot, the proponents promise big rewards, though estimates of tax revenue vary widely:
"We all know there's a market for marijuana, but right now the profits are all going to drug cartels or underground," said Brian Vicente, a lawyer working for Colorado's Campaign To Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol.
But there are numerous questions about the projections, and since no state has legalized marijuana for anything but medical purposes, the actual result is anyone's guess.
Among the problems: No one knows for certain how many people are buying black-market weed. No one knows how demand would change if marijuana were legal. No one knows how much prices would drop, or even what black-market pot smokers are paying now, though economists generally use a national estimate of $225 an ounce based on self-reported prices compiled online.
"It's difficult to size up a market even if it's legal, certainly if it's illegal," said Jeffrey Miron, a Harvard University economist who has studied the national tax implications of the legalization of several drugs.
In Colorado, the $60 million figure comes from Christopher Stiffler, an economist for the nonpartisan Colorado Center on Law & Policy. He looked at the state's potential marijuana market in a study funded by the pro-legalization Drug Policy Alliance. The figure comes from a combination of state and local taxes and projected savings to law enforcement.
Marijuana smokers and dealers, he argued, pay a premium now because the drug is illegal, and if government can find a way to capture that excess, tax collections should rise.
"You can basically take advantage of economies of scale, and the price of marijuana will go down and government can come in and capture the difference," Stiffler said.
The biggest unknown: Would the federal government allow marijuana markets to materialize?
When California voters considered marijuana legalization in 2010, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder warned that the federal government would not look the other way and allow a state marijuana market in defiance of federal drug law. Holder vowed a month before the election to "vigorously enforce" federal marijuana prohibition. Voters rejected the measure.
Holder hasn't been as vocal this year, but that could change. In early September, nine former heads of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration called on Holder to issue similar warnings to Colorado, Oregon and Washington.
That political uncertainty could translate into states spending thousands of dollars to defend the laws, critics say.
"I think it's important that this ballot lay out for the voters how much litigation is going to result from this," said Colorado deputy Attorney General Michael Dougherty, a critic of the legislation.
Legalization proponents counter that some of the 17 medical-marijuana states already collect pot taxes in violation of federal law, which does not condone medical use of the drug. Colorado collects several million dollars a year in pot-related taxes, including sales taxes, licensing fees and fees paid by patients to acquire the drug. Oregon last year doubled the cost of a medical marijuana card to raise money for things like clean water and school health programs.
"Marijuana can be regulated, can be taxed, can be sold. We're doing it now, just currently to sick people," said Vicente, the lawyer working on the Colorado legalization campaign.
Backers concede there are big questions about how marijuana would be taxed and regulated, but they are hoping to sell voters on taking the chance.
"We're like Star Trek. We're heading into a new world," said Art Way of the Drug Policy Alliance, answering tax questions recently posed by law students gathered at the University of Denver to learn about Colorado's initiative.
In the end, voters deciding the marijuana questions won't be making up their minds based on the impact on taxes, said Miron, the Harvard economist.
"It's small potatoes," Miron said of marijuana's tax implications. "I'm as firmly in the pro-legalization camp as anybody in the world, but it's because I think smoking marijuana is not the government's business.
"That is the question — not whether it will produce revenue, but whether these drugs should be legal."
___
Cooper reported from Salem, Ore.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press.
It's a bit more complicated than that in the three states — Colorado, Oregon and Washington — that could become the first to legalize marijuana this fall.
The debate over how much tax money recreational marijuana laws could produce is playing an outsize role in the campaigns for and against legalization — and both sides concede they're not really sure what would happen.
At one extreme, pro-pot campaigners say it could prove a windfall for cash-strapped states with new taxes on pot and reduced criminal justice costs.
At the other, state government skeptics warn legalization would lead to costly legal battles and expensive new bureaucracies to regulate marijuana.
In all three states asking voters to decide whether residents can smoke pot, the proponents promise big rewards, though estimates of tax revenue vary widely:
- Colorado's campaign touts money for school construction. Ads promote the measure with the tag line, "Strict Regulation. Fund Education." State analysts project somewhere between $5 million and $22 million a year. An economist whose study was funded by a pro-pot group projects a $60 million boost by 2017.
- Washington's campaign promises to devote more than half of marijuana taxes to substance-abuse prevention, research, education and health care. Washington state analysts have produced the most generous estimate of how much tax revenue legal pot could produce, at nearly $2 billion over five years.
- Oregon's measure, known as the Cannabis Tax Act, would devote 90 percent of recreational marijuana profits to the state's general fund. Oregon's fiscal analysts haven't even guessed at the total revenue, citing the many uncertainties inherent in a new marijuana market. They have projected prison savings between $1.4 million and $2.4 million a year if marijuana use was legal without a doctor's recommendation.
"We all know there's a market for marijuana, but right now the profits are all going to drug cartels or underground," said Brian Vicente, a lawyer working for Colorado's Campaign To Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol.
But there are numerous questions about the projections, and since no state has legalized marijuana for anything but medical purposes, the actual result is anyone's guess.
Among the problems: No one knows for certain how many people are buying black-market weed. No one knows how demand would change if marijuana were legal. No one knows how much prices would drop, or even what black-market pot smokers are paying now, though economists generally use a national estimate of $225 an ounce based on self-reported prices compiled online.
"It's difficult to size up a market even if it's legal, certainly if it's illegal," said Jeffrey Miron, a Harvard University economist who has studied the national tax implications of the legalization of several drugs.
In Colorado, the $60 million figure comes from Christopher Stiffler, an economist for the nonpartisan Colorado Center on Law & Policy. He looked at the state's potential marijuana market in a study funded by the pro-legalization Drug Policy Alliance. The figure comes from a combination of state and local taxes and projected savings to law enforcement.
Marijuana smokers and dealers, he argued, pay a premium now because the drug is illegal, and if government can find a way to capture that excess, tax collections should rise.
"You can basically take advantage of economies of scale, and the price of marijuana will go down and government can come in and capture the difference," Stiffler said.
The biggest unknown: Would the federal government allow marijuana markets to materialize?
When California voters considered marijuana legalization in 2010, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder warned that the federal government would not look the other way and allow a state marijuana market in defiance of federal drug law. Holder vowed a month before the election to "vigorously enforce" federal marijuana prohibition. Voters rejected the measure.
Holder hasn't been as vocal this year, but that could change. In early September, nine former heads of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration called on Holder to issue similar warnings to Colorado, Oregon and Washington.
That political uncertainty could translate into states spending thousands of dollars to defend the laws, critics say.
"I think it's important that this ballot lay out for the voters how much litigation is going to result from this," said Colorado deputy Attorney General Michael Dougherty, a critic of the legislation.
Legalization proponents counter that some of the 17 medical-marijuana states already collect pot taxes in violation of federal law, which does not condone medical use of the drug. Colorado collects several million dollars a year in pot-related taxes, including sales taxes, licensing fees and fees paid by patients to acquire the drug. Oregon last year doubled the cost of a medical marijuana card to raise money for things like clean water and school health programs.
"Marijuana can be regulated, can be taxed, can be sold. We're doing it now, just currently to sick people," said Vicente, the lawyer working on the Colorado legalization campaign.
Backers concede there are big questions about how marijuana would be taxed and regulated, but they are hoping to sell voters on taking the chance.
"We're like Star Trek. We're heading into a new world," said Art Way of the Drug Policy Alliance, answering tax questions recently posed by law students gathered at the University of Denver to learn about Colorado's initiative.
In the end, voters deciding the marijuana questions won't be making up their minds based on the impact on taxes, said Miron, the Harvard economist.
"It's small potatoes," Miron said of marijuana's tax implications. "I'm as firmly in the pro-legalization camp as anybody in the world, but it's because I think smoking marijuana is not the government's business.
"That is the question — not whether it will produce revenue, but whether these drugs should be legal."
___
Cooper reported from Salem, Ore.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press.
I-502 would be good is if the state could wipe the pot off it's hands altogether, not by making new regulations that would have to be enforced. Make it legal, let the feds deal with it, and deal with it they will. Med mj folks are upset and rightly so. I suspect there are many people driving impaired by other pain drugs (that warn not to drive, etc.) already, so just make med mj patients exempt. Or...just keep it like it is. No real reason to legalize it anyway. It's not like the prison doors are going to open and release previous offenders.
I don't know why but I got quite a chuckle about this, "No one knows for certain how many people are buying black-market weed. No one knows how demand would change if marijuana were legal. No one knows how much prices would drop, or even what black-market pot smokers are paying now..."
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These states trying to legalize are really going into this blindly. I can tell you right now, if it was legalized, demand for it would definitely increase. Maybe hesitantly at first, but it would increase. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that if it were legalized, THEY WILL COME. (Haha, like Field of Dreams)
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Look at how many people go to Amsterdam JUST to go and smoke pot freely. If it were legalized here in Washington State, I'd dare say that our tourism would increase. However, would the state be allowed to open up "marijuana cafes or bars" where people can openly smoke?Â
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Per Section 21 of I-502, "It is unlawful to open a package containing marijuana, useable marijuana, or a marijuana-infused product or consume marijuana, useable marijuana, or a marijuana-infused product, in view of  the general public. A person who violates this section is guilty of a class 3 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW."
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I couldn't find anywhere in the initiative that addresses those types of businesses being legal... only those who apply for permits to sell the product. I couldn't find anything else about consumption in a legal public place. (Maybe I overlooked it? After all, it is 66 pages of legal mumbo-jumbo)
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Think of how many tourists legalization would bring *in my dreamy voice* :)
Just think of the tax windfall if we legalize Crack, Cocaine, and Heroin! In fact don't have any controlled substances at all - just TAX them!
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This is not against legalizing Marijuana - but to legalize it just for possible taxes is*just* *plain*Â *stupid*.
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If you want to legalize it - fine - but do so on its merits (and demerits) and not for the possible tax revenue.
I'm one of the skeptics about this odd 'regulation' process. I think regulation is a falsehood.Â
I'm not against legalizing it - let's just be honest about the facts instead of blowing sunshine up our you know where...
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It's still illegal at the federal level
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This law WILL NOT eliminate the illegal trade in Marijuana. It will just get sold cheaper or higher quality than the regulated and taxed versions.    Yes, some sellers will drop out of the market, however it will not 'magically' stop the illegal and unregulated sale of marijuana.
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We will STILL have to spend money on law enforcement of Marijuana laws to 'crack down on the illegal unlicensed trade in marijuana'.Â
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And that's just with a few moments of thinking about this issue.  I'm sure there's more things to consider.Â
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Anyone who denies these facts is in absolute denial.
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The genie is out of the bottle - there's no way to force it back in under 'regulated' conditions.
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The problem is it is still Fedearally illegal. Even if we legalize it the Feds will cut funding to roads and numerous other avenues of State income until we toe the line. If you want to get it legalized you have to change the Fed statute first. Didn't anybody take Civics in High School? Or don't they teach that anymore?
 @Phareis It's a slow fight though - if enough states end up legalizing the federal government will give up the fight. Sort of like DOMA looks like it might get knocked down in a year or so.
 @quidproquo  @Phareis The federal government will literally send in troops and start a war with a state to keep the drug war alive.
The medical marijuana law is widely abused with just about everyone who wants one being able to get a permit to use.  I am sure that if it were legalized many folks would grow their own in pots on their balcony or in their garden next to the tomatoes.  This will not be the financial windfall the state expects.  I say, pass it anyway and get the state out of the prohibition business.Â
 @Patches Pal I think you under estimate how hard it is to grow -good- marijuana.
Who's genius idea was it to legalize a gateway drug, then give the majority of the tax dollars to substance abuse prevention? This is getting out of hand...
Cannabis is not a gateway drug. Do your research before you spout your opinion.
 @Smashquail The "Gateway drug" theory in regard to cannabis has been disproved and abandoned in lieu of logical, fact-based information -- a long time ago.
Let's just legalize anything that can be taxed and that will make everything better. What anassinine justification. Isn't there such a thing as right and wrong anymore.
 @Whoanelly Yes there is such a thing. One of the things that is wrong is the prohibition of cannabis. See, back when cannabis was made illegal, the American people didn't have the luxury of easily accessible information, so they had to rely on news and propaganda for all of their information. Also, scientific studies of cannabis were elementary and amateurish in comparison to what we are capable of today. Now that we have progressed to a society where we rely on factual, easily obtained information and scientific research is conducted, we have no need to rely on news and propaganda to make decisions about what people are allowed to do with their free time. Since we do that, we now know that the prohibition of cannabis is absurdly inappropriate and unnecessary. So yes, there is right and wrong....and we're undoing the wrong to make it right again.
Pass it for 1~2 years and lets see where it goes.  I still have that cookie dough recipe I wanna sell.
As much as our state government likes to tax the crap out of us, circumvent our "votes" with "fees" (I.E. the car tab initiative) I'm surprised they're not all over THIS like a fat kid on a donut. Yea, there are people that will vote NO on legalization, but.....since when did a puny little VOTE matter? There's MONEY to be made here!!!! TAX GOLD MINE! Come on Washington lawmakers......wake up and tax the weed. (you can support your Benz payments easier, AND lower crime at the same time) The cartels might send their goons to your houses because of it, but, I doubt many of us would really MIND that after the way you've been screwing us for so many years.
first the drug cartel is bs unless your selling to states that dont allow medical pot or your not into the weed at all ,like meth and coke, i vote no on 502 , i think that if 502 passes people will just go to the black market just to miss the tax , and if you have a bag then whats to say you got it from the state ? some stamp ,no you will simply get one stamped bag and refill it with black market weed ,ive been around all my life and to this day i have never seen a so called gang or drug cartel , not for weed not in wa ,i may be wrong but i have never seen any ,and why would we want to get weed from the state ,? will it be as it is with many strains , or will you only be able to get a pack with some add crap , i like my weed organic, clean and tax free , im the one who does all the work and pays the bills ,and theres no tax on your other meds so why on mmj if your a card holder ,
then if your driving and someone causes you to have an accident that will cause you to have blood drawn , you will get a duid and be found to be at fault even if your clearly not because you were under the influance and should not have been driving , this even if your not high , i use oil and would not have any chance to beat that blood level even though im not high,i work every day except saturday which i spend with my family in case you think im lazy crashed on the couch eating big macs .
here some health for ya , three years ago i was very sick with what ever i dont know , i was at 248 lbs and using some prescripts from my doc , i thought i was going to die and no one knew why , so i started using this oil i made my self , my high blood presure gone coleteral normal, and i went down to 190, all from hemp oil ,i feel great,not high,and i sleep like a baby , so obama tel me again how this is wrong ?Â
 @greengrower Your grammar does not do you justice.  Anyways...marijuana sales are the cash cow for drug cartels.  I believe in 2009, they made an estimated $850 billion and the next closest drug...cocaine with $39 billion.  I am not pro-legalization.  It is a bad move for our society but I feel like it is inevitable.  I want to see how the drug cartel side of things pans out.  They are not going away....legalization or not.  They are a business....they will make money...even if that means that they bed up with the government to do so.
sorry teach ,are you a user? have you seen this so called drug cartel, or just some joe in a hoody smoking a dube,or again following what the gov says
I will NEVER vote to legalize pot. We have enough problems.
 @heyjoe I agree with you!  We are asking for trouble and then we will not be able to fix it.  Look at European drug policies.  They are trying to reverse their liberal policies but the damage is done.
your one
Briliant reply. Must have just took a puff. Your mommy must be proud.
If they legalize marijuana do you realize how many people would be growing their own? How would the State tax that? It would put the cartels out of business. .......... as far as weed goes. They would just have to work harder on their Meth and the rest of their goodies.
 @SEATTLITERON Good question - but the initiative does NOT legalize private growing...except for medical users. Of course that won't stop many from doing it, just to avoid the tax.
 @SEATTLITERON Same number that brew hard liquor and grow tobacco?
 @teahater It takes a lot more skill to distill hard liquor than it does to grow a weed, and it takes a lot of standard tobacco plants to warrant growing it for personal purpose. The taxation scheme holds no water.Â
 @Justaguy You apparently have never watched Discovery Channel's series on distilling liquor, or owned a house with a yard. If you make a mistake with distilling (not brewing) you can go blind or end up dead.
If you asked someone who has actually done these three things I think that they would rank them in the following order of difficulty (most to least difficult)Â for having a quality end product....
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Tobacco
Marijuana
Liquor
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Brewing liquor is one of the easiest thing a person can do. Why more people don't do it is beyond me. Especially in a state were manufactored liquor costs as much as it does
Marijuana tied to Ball Cancer.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/CancerPreventionAndTreatment/marijuana-tied-testicular-cancer-risk/story?id=17183711#.UFkYABxos8E
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This must be true, it was reported by Left leaning TV network.
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Why must I continually repeat myself?...
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Legalizing pot means legalizing growing hemp. Ya get one with the other.
No way in Hell is the government gonna stand for it. It's not the pot they're afraid of. It's the HEMP!
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That cracked me up...Good one....
 @bobalouie "Legalizing pot means legalizing growing hemp"
Not under this initiative.
Look, I'm all for legalized marijuana but this initiative is a fools gambit.  VOTE NO because the driving with under the influence part is a. not realistic, b. not even close to rational, and c. not realistic.  You can have well over the THCAC limit in this initiative and not be under the influence at all, not to mention that driving stoned and driving drunk are not even remotely the same unless you are really, really, really stoned-- more stoned than anybody I know ever gets, and way more stoned than people using it medicinally get.  It's complete BS it's even part of the initiative.  Who wrote this?  Dumb. Â
 @MPS do you need to drive while you're smoking? do you do it now? what would change beside the fact you could do it at home and legally carry it and nobody will say a word. stop being a baby and just vote for it!
 @DylanJ  @MPS The point of MPS's post is that a person could be completely, scientifically unimpaired (no longer intoxicated) 5 hours after using cannabis but still be given a DUIC because of the unreliable and inconsistent proposed legal limit -- not to advocate the use of cannabis while driving.Â
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I wonder why the anti-cannabis people have so much trouble understanding what they read and why they try so desperately to twist the words of the pro-cannabis people.  Â
Last year we passed the liquor bill and look where that got us. I say no.
 @justsayin It got us massively increased consumer choice. Head to one of those mega boozemarts and see the wealth of liquor available. It's amazing. Hate that choice stuff!
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It also got us decreased hassle to buy. I rarely buy liquor, perhaps a few bottles a year mainly for parties or the holidays, but we're now able to buy liquor at more convenient times and places. Hate that convenience stuff!
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 @nwbackpacker and oledawg: You two are brilliant. The sham is no longer a secret yet you still believe. Please, take some time off from voting.Â
 @nwbackpacker  @justsayin And you are also paying 30%+ tax on the  liquor.  The base price of liquor has also gone up because these little stores do not having the volume buying power as the state did...which I know for a fact.  I can also speak for experience when I say that liquor thefts have increased substantially.
 @justsayin I'm happy with where it got us.
The only way this works over many states or the nation is as a cottage industry. Small growers or none. No protectionism. Straight value herbal and hemp product. See, hemp really is the hidden wonder here. A lot of the uses may be pretty esoteric, but the value of hemp overall is a real crusher across the board. Uses in natural filtration systems and ergomatic mats and even household drapes are all no brainers, and the fact that we can induce both selective pollination of hybrids as well as sex in cannabis means that we ain't just gonna up and stop looking at weed anytime soon. Government researchers are still being paid to analyze it right now. To legalize it for medical has to be done very carefully, because the public marketshare of wealth and real property is shrinking faster every day, and small owners could all be bought out tomorrow on a whim, and the rest pressured out without effort.Â
I don't smoke it but God made it and we can use it in so many ways. Shouldn't be illegal.
 @Lbaba With that mentality...we might as well legalize heroin, cocaine, and shrooms.  Even methamphetamine because God made all things.
We do legalize heroin and cocaine. It is a Schedule 2 drug. Which means doctors can prescribe it to anyone. They can do research with it. Test it to see if it cures cancer or anything else. They cannot do that with cannabis.Â
Food for thought -
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 One of the big reasons the Great Depression ended was because prohibition was ended. This is a fact thats never really talked about.
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I myself do not use the stuff but it's not any worse than alcohol and we all know how much "revenue" is created for the state from the sale of liquor and spirits. Just look at the sin taxes imposed on them the next time you're at the super market!
 @handsup shhh! Not supposed to call it a sin tax.... rather exploiting your cheer a.k.a spirit tax!
Just what we need a bunch of mush heads waling around not adding anything to society. Pot makes you stupid.
And paranoid. Niiiiiice.
i think maybe you should do some research, start here google RUN FROM THE CURE, unless you like cancer and all the other man made crap , i know its not going to be easy but try to open you rusty old mind
 @just_sayin68 what made you stupid?
 @just_sayin68 More or less stupid than alcohol?
 @nwbackpacker  @just_sayin68 I love the alcohol argument when it comes to marijuana.  That is like comparing apples and oranges.  Two arguments here...like alcohol is done anything good for our society so because we legalized one drug...we should legalize all?
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I think a better comparison is marijuana and cigarettes. Â We all know how that goes. Â Three marijuana joints is equal to smoking a pack of cigarettes. Â Just means increased health care costs and other health services.
 @just_sayin68 Just what we need another willfully ill-informed person not adding anything valuable to the discussion because, stupidly, he thinks cannabis makes people stupid.
 @just_sayin68 Actually that was mean and I shouldn't have said, "stupidly."  The correct word in its place would be "ignorantly." I apologize for my irrational and unnecessary flagrant word.
 @just_sayin68 What's any different than now? Are you thinking there will be more? get real.... The law doesn't hinder marijuana users, sellers or cultivators one bit...