Officials worry drivers will avoid Alaskan Way tunnel, toll
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OLYMPIA, Wash. -- New toll concerns for the new Alaskan Way tunnel have state transportation commissioners scrambling.
The state may have to scrap its original plan for tolls to help pay for the tunnel.
Now, two years into the project, the state transportation commission says the tunnel will not generate in tolls the $200 million needed to help pay for itself. Commissioners fear drivers wll avoid the tunnel to avoid paying.
On Wednesday, the advisory committee for the Department of Transportation and the city of Seattle warned the commission about the issue, saying a high toll -- between $1 and $3.25 each way -- will discourage drivers from using the tunnel. Set it too low -- between 75 cents and $2. 25 each way --- and it won't generate enough money to pay for the tunnel. The key is finding the perfect balance.
"So, what we're doing is trying to model that and get as much detailed information," said Craig Stone, director of the WSDOT toll division. "And we are in the process. We are working with a citizens committee, and they are to lay out some recommendations this spring."
One of those recommendations is to conduct another study on completely redesigning tolling around Puget Sound. Ideas being considered include increasing tolls on other freeways and bridges to pay for the viaduct tunnel.
This spring, the transportation commission will consider increasing the toll on the Tacoma Narrows bridge by as much as 50-cents by either July or January. Commissioners are also considering increasing the toll on the 520 bridge and introducing tolls for the HOV express lanes along Interstate 405.
The commission has all spring to come up with a concrete plan.
The state may have to scrap its original plan for tolls to help pay for the tunnel.
Now, two years into the project, the state transportation commission says the tunnel will not generate in tolls the $200 million needed to help pay for itself. Commissioners fear drivers wll avoid the tunnel to avoid paying.
On Wednesday, the advisory committee for the Department of Transportation and the city of Seattle warned the commission about the issue, saying a high toll -- between $1 and $3.25 each way -- will discourage drivers from using the tunnel. Set it too low -- between 75 cents and $2. 25 each way --- and it won't generate enough money to pay for the tunnel. The key is finding the perfect balance.
"So, what we're doing is trying to model that and get as much detailed information," said Craig Stone, director of the WSDOT toll division. "And we are in the process. We are working with a citizens committee, and they are to lay out some recommendations this spring."
One of those recommendations is to conduct another study on completely redesigning tolling around Puget Sound. Ideas being considered include increasing tolls on other freeways and bridges to pay for the viaduct tunnel.
This spring, the transportation commission will consider increasing the toll on the Tacoma Narrows bridge by as much as 50-cents by either July or January. Commissioners are also considering increasing the toll on the 520 bridge and introducing tolls for the HOV express lanes along Interstate 405.
The commission has all spring to come up with a concrete plan.
This is just another (of many) good reasons to avoid Seattle like a plague. The inmates are runing the asylum...
"Officials worry drivers will avoid Alaskan Way tunnel, toll" - really??? Who'd a guessed it????? /sarcasm off. Â I've been saying this ever since they decided to do this boondoggle-which we voted against! Â They couldn't pay me to go in that tunnel, it's a death trap if the big one hits. Â This city/county/state is getting more out of touch all the time, I'm bailin as soon as I can retire - which is soon!
I posted below, but it has scrolled off of the bottom, so permit me to repeat:
They keep taking it down piecemeal anyway. If "I" ran the zoo, I would take the whole thing down, Pave where it was into a four-lane street and be done with it. No tunnel, no tolls, and frequent access to downtown.
Toll charges, other revenues, and interest for the Tacoma Narrows Bridge may only be used to: pay required costs that contribute directly to the financing, operation, maintenance, management, and necessary repairs of the tolled facility under RCW 47.46.140.Â
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=47.46.140
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How much do you supposed they paid for that study? >8-) I coulda told 'em, and would only have charged a couple of thousand for the info!
duh - do ya think ? and they couldn't see this coming ?
So, they are two years into this boondoggle, and they are just now figuring out what people have been saying all along - that drivers will avoid the tuinnel to avoid the toll. AND they are going to have ANOTHER study to figure out what to do about it. This whole project is nothing but a screwed up mess from the get go. The only people who are going to benefit from it will be the property owners who's views will open up when the viaduct is gone.
Raising tolls on already expensive toll roads (like the Narrows Bridge) is not the answer. Neither is raising the rates on the 520, have they looked at the decrease in traffic on that thing since the tolling went into effect? We already pay a small fortune in taxes for our roads through gas taxes (some of the highest around and they want to raise those too) and car tabs...I'm being taxed to death. Besides every road project I have ever seen done in the greater Seattle Area in the last 35 years takes twice as long and costs three times as much as they say it will, and then when it's finally "finished" they realize "well that doesn't work" and they re-do it over and over again. DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME PEOPLE!Â
 @My2Cents Amen on the "do it right". There is not a single contractor in the state of Washington who can lay 100 feet of flat, level, bump-free paving.
I will join in the refusal to use the tunnel and pay the toll. Â There's no place I need to get to that fast and will not mind taking alternate routes. Â But just watch and the city will start putting tolls on regular surface streets!
We do need to do something about the Viaduct and rebuilding the same kind isn't exactly safe. We only need look at California. Further, we know the Viaduct has issues and if there is a quake before it's replaced... I don't want to think about the lawsuits. However, tolling the hearts and souls out of us is NOT ACCEPTABLE!
What were they thinking? It's what, a mile and a half? It needed to be a really minimal replacement project. Not this huge undertaking they've got now. It isn't that long. I'll probably just use another route. It's the city. I expect traffic
IDIOTS!
all it will take is one good shake (earthquake), and being built on gravel, it will crack and fill up to the top with water. it will take many months to pump it out, and find the clueless drivers that paid the rediculous final toll..... Can you say "Big Dig". originally estimated to be 1 billion dollars, final toll today is 22 billion, and still growing. can you say 520 bridge fiasco
Now, two years into the project, the state transportation commission says the tunnel will not generate in tolls the $200 million needed to help pay for itself. Commissioners fear drivers will avoid the tunnel to avoid paying.Â
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So we paid millions for all the studies and now they're saying   "the tunnel will not generate in tolls the $200 million needed to help pay for itself." Â
Why is it they always come out and say this crap after the projects have started?????? Â I know why................... BECAUSE IT'S TO LATE TO STOP IT FROM BEING BUILT. Â I'm sick of Politics and Politicians and their lame ability to budget money and then go ahead with a project like this that costs BILLIONS OF DOLLARS this state doesn't have.Â
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I say scrap the project and build a single deck bridge to replace the Viaduct. Â Way Cheaper and faster all the way around.Â
Well Jay can fix this mess of Christine's by just shutting down this wasteful project and fix the viaduct.
Who cares? With how long it takes WSDOT to do anything, the tunnel will never be finished anyways.
I work in Gig Harbor and have no choice but to take the Narrows Bridge. If I could avoid it I would. Why is this just dawning on them? Look at 520 - people  just take I-90...
 @Anarchy And so they're thinking of tolling every road now! Why not lower the tolls they take in instead of adding three-dollar tolls everywhere? If they insist on tolling, then 25 cents per trip would generate what they need and not victimize the working poor.  That's something I wonder about. How many people who own cars despite poverty and because public transport isn't feasible where they are would have their paychecks wiped out due to tolls? Use your head, Olympia!Â
I will not drive in that tunnel because with my luck the "big one" will hit while I am in it and it will become a car-filled sewer when the soil liquifies around it and the seawall collapses and Puget Sound floods the dang thing.
 @Glassman On the other hand, if the Viaduct goes while you're driving on it... squish.
@Peach Wookiee:Â
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But at lest in that case you would have a chance.Â
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Cars have fairly sturdy "cage" reinforcement around the passenger compartments these days. It may have something land on it, but there is at least a 50/50 chance that you could be extricated from your vehicle. In a water filled tunnel with inadequate exits, your probably have about a 0% chance of getting out alive IF you are a healthy able-bodied person. If you are handicapped or disabled in any way you are probably screwed.
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The current planning is that there will be doors every 600 feet (two foot ball fields - obstical number one) along the length of the tunnel. Through those doors will be 2 sets of stairs (onbstical number two). You will have to go either up a flight or down a flight to get to a walkway run ning paralelle to the tunnel. Then you will have to walk to either the north portal or the south portal of the tunnel (which is 1.7 miles long - obstical number three) to get out. So, those who are unable to climb stairs or to walk are screwed. Also, the lanes have inadequate shoulders - say someone in a special van with a wheelchair lift that is "side laoding" gets stuclk in the tunnel. If the can't get the lift down due to lack of space, they can;t even get out of their vehicle!
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I will not go anywhere near the tunnel as I am unable to walk & climb stairs to "self-resuce" (what it is called in the current plan).
 @LocalLady  @Peach So, is "self-rescue" the latest fancy government-speak for "tough (feces); you're all on your own out there and don't even think of looking our way for help!" ?
@Glassman - I'm scared of the big one hitting while I'm driving in the tunnel too. Ever see that movie "daylight" with sly stallon, thats about a tunnel incident too.
WSDOT -
I will give you my routing and account numbers and you can dip into my account and take whatever you want whenever. In exchange I get lifetime access to the tunnel with no tolling. Go ahead, I wont even notice because thats what this state and WSDOT have been doing to me for the last ten years anyway.
Some people have no choice but to abandon it. I use the viaduct every day to get to the waterfront. With the tunnel there will be no exits to do that.Â
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It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to know people will try to avoid its use, especially when only one path of many are tolled. OH yeah that's right. This should be the governments queue to toll ALL roads to Rome, because then you couldn't avoid payment. Think I'm joking? Look around.Â
@snow surfer Word. They even are talking about tolling you to drive in the city, including city streets, or by mile.
 @northwestsurfer  @snow I think Seattle needs to shake things up and elect a Republican. I know, they're "all evil," right? But look at what the city's gotten because it's as closed-minded as any red state that votes for Republicans. Seattle... no, King County has gotten in a trench. Vote differently and make sure no party takes the people for granted. That's what happened with our system, folks!Â
@Peach Wookiee
Both sides are equally stupid, stubborn, greedy and power hungry.
Both sides rob us blind while gouging us for tons of campaign money to help get that evil other party out of office and spend literally ALL of their work time and effort crapping on each other and blocking each other's progress.Â
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I would sure be open to a change of just about any kind at this point, though, like you wrote, obviously a serious shake-up is needed to wake them all up.Â
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How about we just swipe our debit cards at the toll booth and they can charge what they want? That's what it is getting to. I understand projects have to paid for but look at how much they have wasted over the years. Look at how much is being wasted on crappy work on the 520 bridge. Ass holes.
For every driver that avoids the tunnel because of the toll, there will be less traffic. Soon, the rich will start taking this road because it has less traffic and they have the money to pay for an easier commute. The problem with this approach is that it disenfranchises the poor and there will soon be a lawsuit.
I drive in to SODO every day from the south end. It's not bad because I take backroads and save myself the headache of the I5 nightmare. I have talked to my boss and currently working on a plan to telecommute three days a week just for this reason. My employer could actually pay me less, and I would make more money by NOT driving to work everyday. It's getting to the point of being to expensive to have a job.
I never voted for that tunnel anyway. Just fix what we have and the state could possibly save some money.
Just shows how out of touch our state is that they couldn't walk outside their office and talk to a hand full of people before even breaking ground to figure this out. Â I'm hoping I can save up enough money to buy a house outright somewhere cheap and not be slave anymore to the system.
And this is a Surprise.......
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Raise taxes on cigarettes , the smokers flock to idaho and oregon
raise taxes on liqour, same thing, but add shoplifters adding to the equation, only much more trips to oregon
raise gax taxes, people drive less
put a toll on 520, only the microsofties will use the private floating bridge.
put a new per mile tax on automobiles, i can see a huge new business hacking odometers... the new digital odometers are much easier than the old analog models to roll back..... you say you need rolled back to 20,000 miles, Done, that will be 50 bucks
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 all the politicians see is dollar signs so they can spend more. Like the totally wasteful, rediculous electronic road signs. What moron decided that would be value added..... 90% of the they aren't even turned on, the rest of the time, they migfht as well say "stop at starbucks". so the sign manafacturer makes money, the dot makes money installing and servicing them, and we get to pay for never ending power costs and new employee's to manipulate the signs messages........ tie to move far away from seattle and the tax muck.....
 @Ringmaster2000 I agree with you. Whats the point of a sign that tells you traffic is slowing and then tell you what speed your suppose to drive at ????? What happened to watching the road and then hitting the brakes when cars slow down???? How are we able to navigate I-5 after we've passed those signs?????  Waste of Money all the way around.Â
Washington needs to go into a "Maintain what we have mode" and stop spending money on "Decor renovations" until we can balance our fiscal budget.Â
This is a note to all of you limosine liberals that've stuck the rest of us with your guilt. You have put all of your eggs in th government basket. You have sold your soul to the democRATS. All they know is take and spend. All they know is how to grow governmnt and pad their wallets while getting their friends jobs/goodies. The more your government does for you th more they WILL do to you.
 @Troglidite So the republicans that are in office right now are not  to blame for anything??? Take off your blinders so you can see the light. Â
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So what happened to your theory then when Republican Bush was in Office??? Â Who should we blame then. Â OH wait I know................ It was the Democrats, right? Â
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All bush did was rack up a ton of debt and then hand off the ball to the next guy. PERIOD!
So what did that  Republican President do for us other than pad his pocket book with his "BIG OIL" influiences??????????   And why didn't your  Republican President Bush find and kill Osama Bin Laden ???  He had 7 years to find him but.....................????????????????
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 @Seahawker  @Troglidite Both parties have taken us for granted. And in this state, it is predominantly Democrat. King County controls the state. Seahawker, if you're talking about national issues, you have points, but you're talking about state government. And this state has been Democratic since I was born. We haven't voted for a Republican for President since Reagan. I say we vote for people, not parties. That way the parties don't take us for granted. They fight for our votes and think about what is best for the state.
 @Troglidite No different than the RepubliCONs.
I rather give money to the guy/gal holding a sign on the street corner.
Using Tolling from other Brides/Items to pay or subsidize one that can't pay for its self... stop the project... fill it void with the idiots that started this then plug the rest of the void with concrete... problem solved... no need to toll it.. and waste other money... that could be used wisely...
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I personally think it's a damn joke...
I thought Washingtonians voted many years ago, to remove bridge tolls in all of the state, and now we are tolling again.  What changed ?? Who are the dumba$$e$ who thought it was a great Idea to pass the new law.  Let them pay all the extra money.Â
 @Tacomian What changed? The politicians that get voted in seem to think they can do what they want. That's the change. Nothing will stop them as they have the "power" to make decisions without a vote of the people.Â
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You can bet that if dropping bridge tolls came up for a vote, it would be passed. Tim the taxman would be all over an Initiative if that should be come the only way to reel in those who want to take everything they can from the wallets of the citizens.
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I'm not saying that some of these projects aren't necessary. Some are and can be justified. The problem is the way these officials are going about finding funding. Drivers can be smart in that if there's a way around a toll, they will find it if that's what they want to do.
Duh! ummm it took this long and a study to know this?
They're right. I will.
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 @clem77 That would be an interesting situation. I=5 is a FEDERAL highway, and federal funds are spent on that; not State funds.
Would be interesting to see the fight of Obamites against Washington State, on who should get the money. Technically, only Obama can get it. Either way, sad choice.
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State getting it: They will still tax us by tolling on other state roads.
Obama getting it:Â More money to murder our babies.
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This State keeps this up, and they will start seeing the same thing happening here like in California. People fed up with the huge taxation, and LEAVING.
@Nuclearian @clem77  They have been talking about tolling I-90 to stop being from using it to avoid the toll on 520. I-90 is also a federal highway. That wont stop them.
Why not make the real benefactors of a tunnel, real estate developers, pay for the tunnel via hefty fees for building or remodeling any projects/buildings within two blocks of the new, viaduct-free water front? Diss me if you want, but I think it is both greedy and ludicrous to put the burden of paying for a potentially dangerous and inconvenient tunnel, upon those citizens who actually NEED it for the sake of jobs and commerce, while real estate developers get to build their new corporate, revenue-producing digs on THE MOST desirable and costly real estate in the the state.
 @Yadayada Oh, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. I could not agree more! Put a sur charge tax on all waterfront property to pay for that sinkhole. YES!