Police union challenging legality of proposed SPD reform plan
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SEATTLE -- The Seattle Police Officers' Guild is challenging the legality of the planned reforms to the Seattle Police Department, claiming they might violate a collective bargaining agreement with the city.
The guild filed its complaint moments after federal monitor Merrick Bobb spoke publicly for the first time about his plan to implement changes to the department.
Bobb also reassured the City Council that any dust-ups between himself, Mayor Mike McGinn and City Attorney Pete Holmes are now over and all three are ready to get the plan approved by a federal judge on Tuesday.
"We talked. The Mayor approves of the monitoring plan and we're off and running," Bobb said.
Filed in King Count Superior Court, the police guild complaint asks a judge to decide whether Bobb's plan violates officers' collective bargaining agreement by calling for sweeping policy changes about when and how to stop and detain suspects. The plan also touches on issues of mandatory training and officer discipline.
After Monday's council meeting, Councilman Bruce Harrell said Bobb's plan doesn't address a lot of the guild's concerns and warned that a lawsuit could cost the city million of dollars.
"For the monitor to impose certain changes without respecting that, and then to have some court or federal lawsuit determine that is going to be very costly for our citizens," Harrell said.
On the other side of the argument, civil rights attorney Connie Rice, who helped the Los Angeles Police Department implement similar changes after the Rodney King beating, said Seattle might want to get ready for a fight.
"Police unions almost never go along with these processes," she said. "They're doing what a guild has to do."
Rice said police unions in LA sued every step of the way when they were forced to make policy changes. She said if all the players in Seattle don't get on board with the agreement, the same thing could happen in Seattle.
"This is a five-ring circus and there are many ring masters and they all have to get along," Rice said.
A police guild official said the union doesn't oppose changes to the department, but they want to make sure Bobb's plan doesn't violate state labor laws.
The guild filed its complaint moments after federal monitor Merrick Bobb spoke publicly for the first time about his plan to implement changes to the department.
Bobb also reassured the City Council that any dust-ups between himself, Mayor Mike McGinn and City Attorney Pete Holmes are now over and all three are ready to get the plan approved by a federal judge on Tuesday.
"We talked. The Mayor approves of the monitoring plan and we're off and running," Bobb said.
Filed in King Count Superior Court, the police guild complaint asks a judge to decide whether Bobb's plan violates officers' collective bargaining agreement by calling for sweeping policy changes about when and how to stop and detain suspects. The plan also touches on issues of mandatory training and officer discipline.
After Monday's council meeting, Councilman Bruce Harrell said Bobb's plan doesn't address a lot of the guild's concerns and warned that a lawsuit could cost the city million of dollars.
"For the monitor to impose certain changes without respecting that, and then to have some court or federal lawsuit determine that is going to be very costly for our citizens," Harrell said.
On the other side of the argument, civil rights attorney Connie Rice, who helped the Los Angeles Police Department implement similar changes after the Rodney King beating, said Seattle might want to get ready for a fight.
"Police unions almost never go along with these processes," she said. "They're doing what a guild has to do."
Rice said police unions in LA sued every step of the way when they were forced to make policy changes. She said if all the players in Seattle don't get on board with the agreement, the same thing could happen in Seattle.
"This is a five-ring circus and there are many ring masters and they all have to get along," Rice said.
A police guild official said the union doesn't oppose changes to the department, but they want to make sure Bobb's plan doesn't violate state labor laws.
Seattle cops are corrupt and worthless. Sorry I mean all cops. Just a bunch of punk bullies with a badge. Time for us to stand up and say no more.
@Thepriest Hmm. Guess who's Black.
@Nuclearian @Thepriest No, white as can be. What does that have to do with it anyways?
@ get it right  See that where your getting it wrong we the people are not worried about weather you had to use deadly force on  a suspect that you can prove or that other police  prove that you were left with few options. Â
But I do believe that there should be no room for repeat offenders that put Boot to Face of handcuffed suspect. Or the cops that follow innocent  citizens down the road  Slamming a bike into there back for half  a city block as the other cops just set back and watch  from the other end of the block and as that person turns and finally says I will just get your name and badge number only to get maced in the face.  Quit assuming that every we're all talking about when your attacked we are talking about when we are attacked and none of the other cops say S&^%. And Yes this happened to me! Its about time the city starts holding you totally accountable for your actions along with the police that set back and watch and do nothing.
The only reason this is such a hot topic now is because all the video and audio recordings that happen now days. But lets be real this has been going on for a long time and if your a cop witch from the way your posting looks like you are then just get real and admit the fact there are fellow police officers that abuse there powers. That they have no business being in Law Enforcement their the ones that give all the good cops a bad name and cause them more grief and put them in danger.  Â
I keep hearing "they should be disciplined when they do something wrong". Yea great. Just what consitutes "wrong"? You think you know? Because it really varies depending on your point of view.
Half of you think that the cops are all Kung Fu experts. The other half think that cops know the "Vulcan Neck Pinch". And most all of you think you know something about police work because you watch TV shows and think cops can shoot knives and guns out of peoples hands.
So given that you will judge a cop harshly for shooting someone charging them with a knife, because after all, you saw on TV that the cop should have been able to disarm him just like TV, should they be disciplined for that?
Most of you think cops can do these magical things that will keep everyone happy and safe. WRONG. There are people that do NOT want to go to jail. They do NOT want to comply. And no amount of reasoning will convince them that its their fault for beating the crap out of their wife or whatever.
Real police work means you have to deal with unruly, violent, dangerous people. Its ugly to deal with them. Its violent. It looks violent. And its NOT TV. So get your heads straight, take off the rose colored glasses and realize the world is not what you think it is. Just be grateful that there are people out there willing to deal with these things so you can sit back and criticize them from the confort of your cushy sofa.
@Get it Right It's your attitude that disgusts me. There are those who hide among you that are a cancer to this community. When and only when the "good" guys and gals with a gun and badge stop harboring the slackers who skirt the boundaries of right and wrong. You know exactly who they are. If you see something, say something.
@Get it Right Thanks for setting us all straight. What would we do w/o you???
JOKE UNIONS ONLY WANTING TO PROTECT THE POLICE THAT HAVE PROVEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN THEY ARE NO BETTER THEN THEÂ CRIMINALSÂ THEY ARE HIRED TO PROTECT US FROM. THEIR THE GOOD OLD BOYS CLUB THE OFFICERS PROTECT EACH OTHER AND WILL NOT TURN EACH OTHER IN WHEN THEY SEE CITIZENS RIGHTS BEING VIOLATED BY FELLOW OFFICERS. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE ARE DEMANDING BETTER OVER SITE.Â
@54U They are better than the Black Racists making up crimes to get cops into trouble.
@54UÂ You forgot the exclamation point.
".... about when and how to stop and detain suspects.  The plan also touches on issues of mandatory training and officer discipline ...."
SPOG needs to show where their specific concerns are actually addressed in their contract. I am fairly certain their contracts do not even address the things they are objecting about - which would most likely be precisly SPD is in the situation it is in now..
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@LocalLady You dont imagine that there is a progressive discipline clause in the agreement? I think you'll find it in or near the grievance procedure clause. In terms of a mandatory training policy, that falls under hours of work and compensation so it is also a mandatory subject of bargaining along with the discipline/ grievance clause.
The union hasn't said they are against anything, rather they seem to want to stop the city from breaking the law before they do. They could have waited and then jumped on the city.
@T_BONE_WALKER @LocalLady Of course they have specific grievance procedures and progressive discipline written in the contract. But I think it highly unlikely that they also have specific training requirements (other than pertains to pay for training) nor do they have specific procedures outlined for how and when they can or should detain a citizen. These latter actions are policies of the employer and would be considered as employer rights in any labor contract that I have seen, and I have seen quite a few over the years.
@Furd I understand that the union has no standing in "When and how to detain" (except if the method of "how to detain" would put officers in more danger in and of itself .Â
However, changing a training policy could take any number of possibilities. Given your background, I wont bother listing the multitudes of possibles. But, lets say if the implemented training required a new location and that location didnt provide free parking like the existing location, you could see right away one example of a concern for a union. Had that free parking been provided for 15 years, it becomes as if it were actual contract language under past practice and a unilateral change to that would be a ULP.Â
Employers can have all the policies they want but if they didnt negotiate the policies they are meaningless to the union if the union never had an opportunity to bargain before implementation. The reason you have seen employer rights in collective bargaining agreements is, they were negotiated or they couldn't possibly be contained in the document.Â
I hear what you're saying though.
SPOG needs to get one thing very clearly through their heads: Police Officers work for US and We The People will MAKE the plan legal!Â
It is about time SPOG stopped trying to act like the legislature, the governor, the courts, the prosecutor and the executioner!
@JLS1950Â Care to show us were "we the PEOPLE" have done anything in the last 40 years? They are acting like a union and vigorously protecting the welfare of the families they represent. Thats what they have to do under the law. They havent said no to anything yet, relax and bargain in good faith.
@T_BONE_WALKERÂ @JLS1950 We The People voted on and passed Tim I'm-An-Idiot's false-promise initiatives: that was dead-dog stupid, but "WE" did it anyway. (You likely voted for them - I did not.)
SPOG is NOT protecting the welfare of any families at all, because they are stonewalling all attempts to weed out the bad cops who make things MUCH harder and MUCH more dangerous for all the other cops and their families, as well as the citizens they are supposed to serve and protect and who pay their salaries! What SPOG is doing has nothing to do with "protecting" anyone but SPOG officials' illegitimate claims to power!Â
Because SPOG protects bad cops - criminal cops, really - from legitimate discipline, personal responsibility and culling from the ranks, SPOG is especially supported by the very worst members of its ranks - thus making the entire union a gang of thugs as I stated.Â
Legitimate unions work to retrain failing members or else cull them from the ranks if they are really not fit for the job - especially unions representing workers in high-risk industries such as riggers, utility linemen, high scalers, iron workers, crane operators, etc. You would think that a police union especially would want to cull members who were a danger to other members of the force. Unfortunately, this is clearly not the case with SPOG - so they are not a truly protective union at all: they make the job much more dangerous for their rank and file by allowing irresponsible and violent thugs to continue to work among them.
@JLS1950 Look, SPOG has a duty under the law to fair representation. That means they cannot pick and choose who to represent, only that they vigorously represent everyone. One thing I want to make clear to you is, union guys get fired just as often as non union. All the employer has to do is wait for that one violation of theft, lying, breaking the law while on duty, etc etc etc. They probably have all the capital offenses spelled right out in the agreement.
It is not the Unions job to fire the employee, it is the employers job and arbitrators have upheld employer's decisions millions of times. You just have to show your case, prove your case and there is no union recourse. Firing people is easy, employees do everything the employer needs them to do without any effort on the employer's part.
But the employer must act, not just lay there and let one guy go and try and hang the next and then suspend the third. The employer is his own worse enemy by his inaction. You cant pin it on the union.
Memo: continue to beat the general public until moral improves or until told otherwise, SPD
@ballardanian Yep. Since those beatings are probably Black racist BS complaints anyway.
Unions. Simply a gang of thugs where ME is the core theology.Â
@Grumpa No, unions are groups of nice working folks with common interests in the work place using their right to association, assembly and representation as outlined under the constitution.
If you and I were negotiating a real estate deal that was lucrative for you, would you run the deal by representation (Legal Counsel) to make sure we dotted the "I"s and crossed the "T"s and you were getting a fair shake? Of course you would. Then how could you argue that someone does not have that right in deal that likely would economically eclipse any deal we could make?Â
I think you're confused on the "me" thing, unions are for we, not me. You'll find much more "me" in the non union sector. You're batting zero here man.
@T_BONE_WALKER @Grumpa Most unions are or usually have been as you describe. SPOG and many other police unions, however, have become gangs of thugs who think they ARE the "law". They need to be taken down about 30 notches.
@Nuclearian @JLS1950 Sounds rather like "I know you are, but what am I?" What will you post next? "nya-nya-nya-nya-nyaaah"?
@JLS1950 @Nuclearian Â
Since YOU called my remark racist, you are obviously a bigger one. Since you seem to see RACISM in it, instead of TRUTH.
@Nuclearian @JLS1950 Clearly there is no racism in your family: you have it all!
@JLS1950 Yeah. They need to learn that they can only man handle ONE bad black man for every TEN white man they arrest. Otherwise they are racist, and need to be brought down.
@JLS1950 When I worked for the City of Seattle many years ago the SPOG was the most powerful union the city dealt with. I doubt that it is any different today.
@T_BONE_WALKER @Grumpa They use to be T_bone. The last 30 years have not been good for the union movement. This move by the police union stinks of protectionism clear and simple and does not help the cause.
@GrumpaI just realized that I made a rather large mistake. I cited federal labor law erroneously. In this case the Public Employees Relations Commission would rule it an unfair labor practice, not the National Labor Relations Board. P.E.R.C. was created in this state around the mid 70s if memory serves and despite dealing with them a few times, I had completely forgot that they have jurisdiction over many municipal employees.
Sorry.
@Grumpa And I think you're saying what the union just said. A few cool heads could get this done at coffee, no sense for the parties to get off on the wrong foot.
I wish they could stop the cop violence on citizens for no reason but, thats another issue. The beatings by these young cop punks hopped up on steroids makes me sick. Its the whole us against them thing that gets me.
@T_BONE_WALKER The Police on the street deserve a fair hearing of the issues and review of the terms, conditions and policies they have to work under. There is no doubt about that. I also do not like it when their hands are tied with rules that leave common sense in the gutter. If the unions want to get this right they need to temper it with some of the public's concerns that have been brought forth and echo'ed in Merrick Bobb's  report. Let Roll!
@Grumpa"This move by the police union stinks of protectionism clear and simple and does not help the cause."
I am sure it appears that way to you and others but, the union has a duty to fair representation under the law. All the union is saying, wait a minute BEFORE you unilaterally change terms and conditions and cause an even worse problem for the city, not the union, the union will win that one.Â
Those terms, conditions, and policies were negotiated and I am sure in some cases things were traded back and forth. The union would be making a mistake to lay in the bushes and wait for the employer to violate federal labor law and then pounce on the city. That wouldn't be forthright or bargaining in good faith. I think they (the union) want to make sure the parties understand that they want a place at the table to protect the interests of their members and the welfare of the member's families that hey represent.
Yes its a fulltime job in Seattle keeping dirty cops on duty and their union rep busy....
The police union exists solely for the police, not for public safety or benefit.
@lakeview Correct. Because police officers are employees and not slaves. SPOG represents the employees interests, as with other unions, representative bodies, etc. Otherwise the employer would walk all over the employees.
Your point?
@Papio Methinks Papio is probably an SPD officer who has abused citizens and was part of what triggered this investigation, so OF COURSE he doesnt want to be held accountable, nor does he want to have to change his practices to actually protect the citizens of Seattle. BTW, Papio, I did another google search on the authors of the report and found on the DOJ web site the original report. It is signed Jonothan M Smith for the Department of Justice, and makes no mention WHATSOEVER in the report or any appendices of Merrick Bobb or his firm. If fact it says it was conductred entirely by the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, Special Litigation Unit.
So, Officer Papio, get used to actually DOING your job!
@EMDF9A I am not a cop and agree with papio. I believe we all have a right to representation. Thats kind of the bedrock of this country, wouldn't you agree?
@Papio Public unions are a failure and it won't be long before Washington voters figure it out.
@lakeview What do YOU know? Teachers strike and everybody kisses their arses. Why dont they FIRE their sorry arses, and hire people that REALLY want to be teachers, and not just get a free ride? maybe our kids will actually get an education for a change.
Violate labor laws? How is requiring additional training, implementing policy changes regarding how/when to stop and detain suspects, and holding an officer accountable with discipline when they do something wrong violating labor laws?
I thought the SPD was open to making the necessary changes to help improve the public's view and opinion of the SPD? It's stunts like this that disgust the citizens and increase the contempt we hold for the SPD. They don't want to make changes for the better of the department. They just want to get the DOJ off their backs.
@Tattooed_Angel2"Violate labor laws? How is requiring additional training, implementing policy changes regarding how/when to stop and detain suspects, and holding an officer accountable with discipline when they do something wrong violating labor laws?"
Training and discipline are policies that are negotiated by the parties and any unilateral change without bargaining would be an unfair labor practice. The mention of millions is drama though as the city would be told to resolve it and dont do it again. I dont think changes to how or when they stop and detain is an issue however. This is simply the Guild vigorously representing its members as per the law. There is nothing stopping the parties from negotiating something new to cover the new policies.
@T_BONE_WALKER @Tattooed_Angel2 Uh, What part of COURT ORDERED dont you understand? If it is ordered by the court it is non-negotiable
@EMDF9AI just realized that I made a rather large mistake. I cited federal labor law erroneously. In this case the Public Employees Relations Commission would rule it an unfair labor practice, not the National Labor Relations Board.Â
P.E.R.C. was created in this state around the mid 70s if my bad memory serves and despite dealing with them a few times, I had completely forgot that they have jurisdiction over many municipal employees. If this were a private employer, then my post is correct but its a municipality and PERC rules here, not the NLRB. The outcome will be the same but I am obviously confused as I completely forgot that this is a PERC case.
SorryÂ
@EMDF9AÂ Could you provide the case number and verdict please?
@EMDF9A You have no idea what you're talking about, son.
@T_BONE_WALKER Well since it is a FEDERAL court which does look at compliance with labor law, and they have already ruled that this is to go into effect NOW I guess YOU lose. Sorry
The conplaint by SPOG is filed in district court and will be thrown out withut merit because a FEDERAL court has already ruled on the issue.
@EMDF9A I guess I understand the part where a state court ruling has no impact whatsoever on Federal Labor Law. Any unilateral change to terms and conditions is unlawful. Look it up yourself.
It is negotiable, sorry, you lose.Â
Just more signs of corruption in the police force. Of course they don't want to be regulated, that will crimp their style. This is an example of why their should be no such thing as government unions. They already have the kushiest jobs out there and their benefit packages are ridiculous. But nobody wants to accept responsibility for their own safety any more, Everyone screems for more government and this is what you get.
@Blindman funny it reminds me of our schools .... the more cops the better the more to see that f=ed up the less corrupt it will be...
@Blindman Pretty obvious you have never worked any regular job in a governmental agency.