Psychiatric patients being 'warehoused' at local hospitals
SEATTLE -- Community health leaders insist we are in the midst of a public health crisis that most people have never heard of.
Behind hospital walls, there is a disturbing reality of too many psychiatric patients on hold for help.
Inside every community hospital in King County, mentally ill patients are being warehoused. Some are tucked into emergency rooms, put on medical floors and boarded in intensive care units for days, weeks and even months.
"When I say warehoused, I am saying we can keep them dry and safe and on their meds, but we are simply not equipped to provide the other care that they need to get better," said Dan Dixon Swedish Hospital's vice president of external affairs.
Those patients are known as psychiatric boarders. It happens when there are more psychiatric patients than psychiatric beds available.
"We have a public health crisis," said King County mental health director Amnon Shoenfeld.
Shoenfeld said state law requires individuals who are "gravely disabled" or a danger to themselves or others to be committed or hospitalized for treatment against their will.
Last year in King County, the Problem Solvers learned that 3,000 people were committed, and more than 2,000 of them had to wait for help.
"Basically, two out of very three people that we evaluate as needing involuntary commitment we can't find a hospital treatment bed at the time we do the detention. Two out of three, so that is a major crisis," Shoenfeld said.
Patients are committed for three days, but subsequent court hearings can extend that stay to 14 and all the way up six months.
Greg Bates is a nurse practitioner in psychiatry. He insists hospitalized mental health patients should be in a psych ward. Patients lucky enough to get a bed in a psych ward have access to specialized staff, therapy, activities and a locked down secured environment.
Bates said not every mental health patient is violent, but some patients are thoroughly psychotic and can be vioent.
Seattle RN Melissa Martin still has a hard time talking about what happened to her.
"I was fearful because he was so psychotic that he was going to kill me," she said.
Martin was trying to deliver meds to a psychiatric boarder when he charged her.
"Punching me multiple times in the face, eventually jumping on top of me where he continued to assault me and punch me in the face," Martin said of the attack.
Martin missed six months of work while she recovered from neck and back injuries, and she wasn't the only nurse who was assaulted.
RN Molly Murphy was at the mercy of her attacker until other nurses stepped in and rescued her.
"Beause at that point the patient did have my stethoscope and it it was around my neck and she was trying to tighten it," Murphy said.
In both cases the nurses insist they weren't properly trained to truly help their patients.
"As a nurse, I would never be floated down to the OR and expected to perform as an OR nurse," Martins said.
Federal, state and local funding cuts, as well as reimbursement reductions, the uninsured and disappearing community clinics all contribute to an uptick in warehouse patients.
Desperate for a fix, the county reached out to every hospital. Swedish wants to create a non-profit with other hospitals to pool their money and resources. Dixon said with guidance from Harborview Medical Center, 15 to 25 more psychiatric beds scattered in King County could be just the fix.
Swedish's board has earmarked money, but Dixon said at least three other hospitals need to commit.
"My friends will tell you I'm a dog with a bone. I want to get this done," Dixon said.
Staffers like Bates who worry about another tragic headline linked to mental illness are counting on it.
"Do we blame them for what they do or do we look at ourselves?" Bates said. 'And I think society is always judged by how do we treat the most disenfranchised."
Some patients eventually get a psychiatric bed and treatment, but the problem is statewide. Harborview gets the lion's share of the patients. It boarded 825 patients last year alone.
Area hospitals also say they're working with lawmakers on a fix.
Behind hospital walls, there is a disturbing reality of too many psychiatric patients on hold for help.
Inside every community hospital in King County, mentally ill patients are being warehoused. Some are tucked into emergency rooms, put on medical floors and boarded in intensive care units for days, weeks and even months.
"When I say warehoused, I am saying we can keep them dry and safe and on their meds, but we are simply not equipped to provide the other care that they need to get better," said Dan Dixon Swedish Hospital's vice president of external affairs.
Those patients are known as psychiatric boarders. It happens when there are more psychiatric patients than psychiatric beds available.
"We have a public health crisis," said King County mental health director Amnon Shoenfeld.
Shoenfeld said state law requires individuals who are "gravely disabled" or a danger to themselves or others to be committed or hospitalized for treatment against their will.
Last year in King County, the Problem Solvers learned that 3,000 people were committed, and more than 2,000 of them had to wait for help.
"Basically, two out of very three people that we evaluate as needing involuntary commitment we can't find a hospital treatment bed at the time we do the detention. Two out of three, so that is a major crisis," Shoenfeld said.
Patients are committed for three days, but subsequent court hearings can extend that stay to 14 and all the way up six months.
Greg Bates is a nurse practitioner in psychiatry. He insists hospitalized mental health patients should be in a psych ward. Patients lucky enough to get a bed in a psych ward have access to specialized staff, therapy, activities and a locked down secured environment.
Bates said not every mental health patient is violent, but some patients are thoroughly psychotic and can be vioent.
Seattle RN Melissa Martin still has a hard time talking about what happened to her.
"I was fearful because he was so psychotic that he was going to kill me," she said.
Martin was trying to deliver meds to a psychiatric boarder when he charged her.
"Punching me multiple times in the face, eventually jumping on top of me where he continued to assault me and punch me in the face," Martin said of the attack.
Martin missed six months of work while she recovered from neck and back injuries, and she wasn't the only nurse who was assaulted.
RN Molly Murphy was at the mercy of her attacker until other nurses stepped in and rescued her.
"Beause at that point the patient did have my stethoscope and it it was around my neck and she was trying to tighten it," Murphy said.
In both cases the nurses insist they weren't properly trained to truly help their patients.
"As a nurse, I would never be floated down to the OR and expected to perform as an OR nurse," Martins said.
Federal, state and local funding cuts, as well as reimbursement reductions, the uninsured and disappearing community clinics all contribute to an uptick in warehouse patients.
Desperate for a fix, the county reached out to every hospital. Swedish wants to create a non-profit with other hospitals to pool their money and resources. Dixon said with guidance from Harborview Medical Center, 15 to 25 more psychiatric beds scattered in King County could be just the fix.
Swedish's board has earmarked money, but Dixon said at least three other hospitals need to commit.
"My friends will tell you I'm a dog with a bone. I want to get this done," Dixon said.
Staffers like Bates who worry about another tragic headline linked to mental illness are counting on it.
"Do we blame them for what they do or do we look at ourselves?" Bates said. 'And I think society is always judged by how do we treat the most disenfranchised."
Some patients eventually get a psychiatric bed and treatment, but the problem is statewide. Harborview gets the lion's share of the patients. It boarded 825 patients last year alone.
Area hospitals also say they're working with lawmakers on a fix.
http://www.workerscompensationinsurance.com/survey_results/va_nurse.htm  Wow this guy story is almost the same as mine.  This is scary.
See this post and then lets talk about mental health funding. Â Â http://news.yahoo.com/serial-killers-creepy-suicide-note-182247957--abc-news-topstories.html
Why is this story not posted on you tube? Â Hmmmm,
If you have a sick loved one that may have psychiatric illness or psychiatric symptoms related to physical illness that needs appropriate care the best suggestion I can give you is move out of Washington State.  The Mental Health Care here is corrupt and they actually exploit the mentally ill for their own pocket over appropriate treatment; if your loved one is well insured or on Medicaid/Medicare he or she  in danger of being held longer than needed and drugged into oblivion.  RUN!!! Â
Well folks, I'll tell you that my wife had a visit to one of these state run crack houses a few years back and the friggin drugs they poured through her system screwed her up worse than anything. She is one hell of alot better since I got her off the crap that the so-called doctors shoved down her throat. Thats all they want to do is give you drugs. Oh I forgot, they are in bed with the drug companies to push their meds. The state contracts to certain hospitals for the treatment and you would s@#%t your pants if you new how much they bill the taxpayers for a one day stay in these deplorable places.
@glideman Sounds like you personally had a bad experience with having someone commited. Just a heads up, a large number of the patients that have come through my facility who are detained due not have insurance and the hospitals do not get reiumbursed. As for shoving drugs down here throat the patient still has to be able to swallow them, and majority of the time they dont because they are paranoid, delusional or misenterpreting caregivers actions, so Im a little confused on you comment. Back to my point of people expect to be cared for but dont want to pay a bill.Â
WITH GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT, IT WILL NEVER BE FIXED
@contraryjim Do you have a better idea? Are you willing to front the money? Lets be realistic here.
I guarantee you the unions will continue their wage increases, pensions and stellar healthcare benefits while the State continues to throw people into the street. What is wrong with cutting the bloated government wages to keep our mental hospitals and prisons functioning at a safe level?  I read today that a bus driver in King County makes a base salary of $84k per year with lush benefits and overtime, and I'm making less and we the taxpayers carry this burden, shouldn't we have a say in where our tax dollars go? I know where I'd start cutting and it would not be to hurt the most vunerable.
@ObsidianOne not all state workers make that kind of money  bdesides the bus driver is a county worker not state and our benifits we seem to be losing theyy balance the buget on our backs and they seem to screw state workers
State Health care PCT 46K my last best year, plus 10K for insurance which denies me all services. Â PS it took a lot of OT just to get that much. Â So well I agree with you that there are some cuts that need to be made all over the place, and some are getting paid way too much than others. Â It is not all state employees that are doing as well as you suggest. Â Or at least I can contest to the fact that this front line worker on mental illness does not make that much. Â I wish I did though. Note to self pick up bus drive app.Â
 @ObsidianOne "I read today that a bus driver in King County makes a base salary of $84k per year with"
Can you provide a source for that claim?
@OrcasThunder  Sorry for the late reply.Â
King County Metro Bus Driver Wages Grow out of Control      By
Michael Ennis, Director, Center for Transportation
,       July, 2010
Background
Over the last ten years, King County Metro has twice increased the sales tax rate. In 2000, Metro officials were successful in asking voters to approve a 0.2 percent rate hike and another 0.1 percent in 2006. Metro officials said these two tax increases would expand county bus service by 1.28 million hours by 2016. So far, Metro officials have only delivered about 307,000 hours, a third of the bus service they promised voters.
While taxpayers and transit users have not received what they were promised, one group has benefited from the two tax increases, public bus drivers.
Key Findings
Over the last ten years, King County Metro has twice sought and received increases in the sales tax rate but only delivered about one third of the bus service promised to voters.Over the same time period, salaries paid to Metro bus drivers grew 70%, from $79 million in 2000 to about $135 million in 2009.Average wages for Metro bus drivers grew more than twice the rate of inflation.Metro does not even require a high school degree to become a transit operator, yet there are now 243 who make over $75k per year and 20 who make over $100k per year.These high wage bus drivers cost taxpayers $1.6 million in 2000. By 2009, these high wage drivers cost taxpayers $20.7 million per year, an increase of nearly 1,200%.Voters were told the higher taxes would be used to deliver more bus service, not to increase wages for bus drivers.Metro officials should gain control of wages and deliver the service promised from the previous two tax increases before additional taxing authority is considered.
King County Metro Bus Driver Wages Grow out of Control ByMichael Ennis, Director, Center for Transportation
, July, 2010Background
Over the last ten years, King County Metro has twice increased the sales tax rate. In 2000, Metro officials were successful in asking voters to approve a 0.2 percent rate hike and another 0.1 percent in 2006. Metro officials said these two tax increases would expand county bus service by 1.28 million hours by 2016. So far, Metro officials have only delivered about 307,000 hours, a third of the bus service they promised voters.
While taxpayers and transit users have not received what they were promised, one group has benefited from the two tax increases, public bus drivers.
Key Findings
Over the last ten years, King County Metro has twice sought and received increases in the sales tax rate but only delivered about one third of the bus service promised to voters.Over the same time period, salaries paid to Metro bus drivers grew 70%, from $79 million in 2000 to about $135 million in 2009.Average wages for Metro bus drivers grew more than twice the rate of inflation.Metro does not even require a high school degree to become a transit operator, yet there are now 243 who make over $75k per year and 20 who make over $100k per year.These high wage bus drivers cost taxpayers $1.6 million in 2000. By 2009, these high wage drivers cost taxpayers $20.7 million per year, an increase of nearly 1,200%.Voters were told the higher taxes would be used to deliver more bus service, not to increase wages for bus drivers.Metro officials should gain control of wages and deliver the service promised from the previous two tax increases before additional taxing authority is considered.@OrcasThunder http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/08/king_county_metro_union_defend.php
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Here is not the 84k but it certainly points out a PROBLEM....ofcourse that is from 2010... just fyi
@OrcasThunder Your point is interesting. I suppose the fact the bus drivers and public sector employees are makin more than most of us in the private sector and we're supporting their generous wages and benefits is what chaps my behind. When I have to cut dining out because my car tabs or property taxes go up to pay for pubic sector employees is why I resent them. It's my firm believe when the economy is in a slump or takes a hit, these public employees should carry some of the load. My salary was cut in 2008 by 10%, I'm not getting a match for my 401k at all. My insurance used to be paid by my employer and now I'm paying 85%. This is my personal story and I'm sure there are others who are worse off than I am. On a final note, I think a bus driving job should be HALF of the amount they are paid in that article that has the 2010 wages posted.
 @Freespeech  @OrcasThunder Thanks for the article.
I note that, at the $28.47 an hour pay rate, "a driver would have to work 936 hours of overtime in a year to break $100,000.
If Metro is allowing ANY driver to work that much OT, that is Metro's error - I think it violates federal regulations on how many hours a driver can be allowed to be on the road. On the other hand, I know a driver who is forced to work split shifts - and still doesn't rack up a full 40 hours of work during ANY week. I also notice the mention of drivers being forced to not take breaks - which is a violation of both State AND Federal laws...Metro should take a hard look at how it misuses it's employees.
Also, is that $28.47 what the driver is paid, or does that include administrative and employer costs as well?
But more to the point, ObsidianOne, what does what a bus driver get's paid have to do with the miserable situation regarding what passes for the mental health system in this country? Or is it that they make more than you do, and you don't think anyone should ever make more than you?
It would be interesting for you to also know  how our workers compensation program treats half of these injured workers.  The Workers comp. program  tries to deny treatment to half of these injured workers.  And the workers our not allowed to fight against it in a court of real law.  This adds insult to injury.  Not being able to sue our Dr.s in a court of law as individuals, and giving HMO's and Dr.s the ultimate power to be gatekeepers to the care, treatments, and resources, one receives, or does not receive in our health care system unchecked by the civil legal system creates an adversarial role between health care providers and patients, and gives free reign to HMO's and government programs to administer at will any austerity measures they see fit to put forth on the public.  Once again with out being able to be challenged in  a real court of civil law.  This adversary role is resulting in death of health care workers across this country.  Dr. in Orange county shot this week by an enraged 7 year old, 2 days later an 85 year old man shots a director of nursing here in Stanwood.  I have brought this to the attention of Group Health, The WA. Med Quality Ass. Board, Workers Comp, and the University of Washing Hospital Risk Management, and Senator Nick Harper.  To be told that they can not work to change this problem, you see, they have let me know that the bottom line of the HMO's is more important than taking care of, and protecting patients, and providers. Yes please fund mental health projects ASAP, your are going to need them when half of these health care providers realize after their injured by one of these patients that their injuries are not going to be covered and treated. I have been a male CNA in WA for the past 15 years, who is stuck sitting one to one with mentally ill patients.  In rooms that have glass windows, telephone cords, sharp cornered edges, ect.  Now I find my self going insane because of a system that just is not there for its mentally ill, nor the providers who care for them. Â
@Darren Fonzseau Thank you for touching on the L&I portion. This story obviously only skims the surface of the overall program. I am sure people are unaware that when a healthcare worker is assulted and injured by a patient they are put on workers compensation which for someone who is single no kids entitles them to 60% of their pay during their recovery. So to ad insult to injury we are left with financial burdens, dealing with the courts regarding the assult cases and at the mercy of L&I to approve care prescribed by Doctors which creates dely in treatments.Â
 @MM  @Darren Thanks MM and KOMO News, and the Brave nurses who have come forward with their stories.  It feels so validating just to be heard,Â
Please see http://www.drrichardhall.com/ethical.htm. Â
Ethical and Legal Implications of Managed Care
Richard C. W. Hall, M.D. CourtesyClinical Professor of Psychiatry University of Florida, GainesvilleÂ
Â
Lets get to one of the real roots of the problem.
Since there is such a high influx of people need psychiatric treatment, shouldn't we back pedal here and try to find out WHY? Try chemicals in our food, over-medicating people for the wrong issues, violent video games, horribly corrupt but supposedly funny tv shows. The list goes on.
@Andrea Gearllach We are seeing the influx due to the cut in funding which took away beds at psychiatric facilities, treatment centers and mental health resources in general. Figuring out what causes mental illnessess does not address the current crisis.
 @Andrea Gearllach Was a good point until I saw video games...I played them since I was a very young kid and I am not half as screwed up as some of these other people... video game violence has nothing to do with it... just bad screwed up parents breeding even more screwed up kids!...and hate to tell you this but... 'they multiply faster!'
 @Andrea Gearllach "and try to find out WHY?"
Yes, we should.
But that would best be done under a government grant - to avoid a company from funding, and then burying, any research that would show their product was harmful.
And in the current TP led Congress, such funding is on life support, if it lives at all.
If they are on the street it could be anyone that is attacked. If they are in a health care setting it is a nurse or other health care worker. As bad as the crisis is in the hospital there are more dangerous mentally ill people on the streets than are in hospitals. To make matters worse a lot of mentally ill people are paranoid and own guns.
@memory9 The reason we are seeing the increase of mentally ill patients on the streets is due to the mental health financial cuts. These cuts lead to less follow up care, less care managers to check in on patients and monitor there medication intake and daily living, along with less facilities for them to be housed out. The point of this story is to show the increase in the mentally ill population who are not recieving appropriate care. Also what goes wrong in hospitals when we force these patients to remain contained in non psychiatric settings.
 @memory9 "To make matters worse a lot of mentally ill people are paranoid and own guns."
Well phrased. The gunnies who say that the mentally ill are the problem with guns will have a hard time arguing otherwise - even though they refuse to admit that much of that paranoia resides in their front yards...
Sounds like it's time to get a new facility built. This problem won't go away by ignoring it. We have been short on this kind of care for a long time.
How about the separation of illnesses that adds to the problem of bed shortages. What the article doesn't say is that a patient must be medically cleared and healthy before a psych bed is an option. Why? The psych hosptials do not employ medical RNs, or physcians to take care of a patient who needs both medical and psych care. Psych hospitals do not do wound care, fix diabetes medication, or work to stablize a medcially ill patient. All they do is psych care. Sometimes that's not enought, It's not clear why there is a division or when it happened.
Yep, and in addition prison has become the new norm for the mentally ill etc.! Little things like FUNDING, BUDGETING and PRIORITIES elude politicians pertaining to care for the mentally ill.
And that's just talking about the ones of whom someone has actually MADE the assessment that they are gravely disabled or an immediate danger to themselves or others. They, at least, are lucky enough to get SOMETHING (like a bed and food and meds), even if it be totally inadequate.
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Then there's all the ones on who are at or near crisis and their loved ones are helpless to get any resources or treatment because they're a few steps shy of a massive psychotic break or being suicidal/homicidal. Nobody wants to know about them, much less do anything about them. I have so much respect for those who are part of the battle to help those people. Kudos to the many medical professionals who spoke out for this article.
The problem with our society is we are very ignorant. No one is asked to be born with a mental illeness. We love to throw labels at the mentally ill. But yet no one wants to increase taxes to improve things. Instead of complaining about the gun control and labeling the mentally ill, get involoved in advocating. Realize that I see a large population of patients coming to the hospitals with no insurance and no intent on paying those bills. What if we turned patients away with no insurance? Something has to change.
Geeze, there will never be enough hospitals, wards or rooms for all the toons running around the northwest...
 @Windowseat "for all the toons running around the northwest..."
Yes...but it is their right under the 2nd Amendment...
 @Windowseat Realy/ "Toons"??  a traumatic event can trigger a mental breakdown resulting in a mental illness diagnosis, in anyone! I know. My accomplished, 40 year old daughter with no history of mental illness, anxiety, etc recently had a complete breakdown after a traumatic event. And you have the audacity and stupidity to call people like this "toons"?
Â
Mental illness is NOT A CHOICE! Â
How about we execute those in prison that desperately need it, move the other inmates/career criminals over to those spots then we can free up a prison or two to be utilized as inpatient mental health facilities.Â
I like the logic, we should just  put all sick people in prisons and through away the key's.  That sounds like a constructive comment to an important social debate. And what a cost saver that would be.  Could we also just put people in there that we plain just don't like. izwideopen hmm. I'm thinking mindclosedshut.
I'm sorry to have sounded so harsh on my reply, But when I here people talk about ending humane life as a way to resolve or social ills, it just does not settle well me.  Not to say that I have not thought of that idea as a solution myself. Not the taking of life part, but the emptying out of prisons to turn them in  to mental health hospitals.  May be we could let out all those with minor drug offenses.  That might make way for 1 or 2 hospitals.  So I somewhat agree with you, accept for that let's take life part as a solution to our problems.  Peace to you and your views my friend.
Big Mike is spot on. Our mental health system is in a shambles and untreated mental illness is the root cause of a lot of what is now going on. Increasing gun control is simply applying a bandaid to a gaping wound. I agree with deeper background checks, but #1 priority should be getting people into treatment and into controlled environments. Families of these recent shooters have had years of trying to cope with their disturbed member with no where to turn because of our lack of any real support.Â
Â
Can anyone verify the validity of the John Noveske list of shooters that were on or withdrawing from psych meds? It can be found on YouTube, and has been widely circulating in email. If true,
Â

When portions of Western State closed, where did they think these patients were going to go? We took patients that have been insitutionalized for years and force them to the street to fend for themselves. Where did you think they were going to end up? People (including people with mental illness) know how to get their needs met, and in emergency situations they go to the only place that has a sign on its door that says "emergency". The hospitals are not equipped with the staff or resources to monitor patients with mental illness 24/7, which is why places like Western State exsist. However, when there is a budget crisis the first things to get cut are social services and mental health. I am a mental health professional and I do my best to take care of these folks just he same as all the others just like me in this field, but the catch 22 is: If we do our jobs and keep these people with mental illness out of the publics eye, then the public (officials) dont see them, which then equates to there not being a need for an abundance of mental health resources so the funding gets cut. Hows that mentality working NOW?? The reality is that mental healh workers, just he same as police, EMS, fire, teachers etc, are not given the proper resources to properly do our jobs. This is not just a problem in King county either, its the same in Pierce as well as (I am sure) all the other counties is Washington and across the US. There is a huge population that needs the resources that we are cutting and it has been over looked. I am just wondering how much money the state saved by closing portions of WSH, because I am willing to guess that its less that the amount of money that is being spent to "house" these folks in emergency rooms and hospitals. It passed time for the US to start taking care of its citizens. Clearly there is an issue, my hope is that this may trigger someone in power to finally step up to the plate and do whats right.
 @Big Mike I'm sure you made some interesting points in your comment, but all I see is a big block of print. It makes me dizzy. I hope you don't mind, but I re-posted your comment, so dizzy people like me can enjoy it.
________________________________________
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When portions of Western State closed, where did they think these patients were going to go? We took patients that have been institutionalized for years and force them to the street to fend for themselves. Where did you think they were going to end up? Â
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People (including people with mental illness) know how to get their needs met, and in emergency situations they go to the only place that has a sign on its door that says "emergency". The hospitals are not equipped with the staff or resources to monitor patients with mental illness 24/7, which is why places like Western State exist.However, when there is a budget crisis the first things to get cut are social services and mental health.
Â
I am a mental health professional and I do my best to take care of these folks just he same as all the others just like me in this field, but the catch 22 is: If we do our jobs and keep these people with mental illness out of the public's eye, then the public (officials) don't see them, which then equates to there not being a need for an abundance of mental health resources so the funding gets cut. Â
Â
Hows that mentality working NOW?? The reality is that mental health workers, just the same as police, EMS, fire, teachers etc, are not given the proper resources to properly do our jobs. This is not just a problem in King county either, its the same in Pierce as well as (I am sure) all the other counties is Washington and across the US.
Â
There is a huge population that needs the resources that we are cutting and it has been over looked. I am just wondering how much money the state saved by closing portions of WSH, because I am willing to guess that its less that the amount of money that is being spent to "house" these folks in emergency rooms and hospitals. Â
Â
It passed time for the US to start taking care of its citizens. Clearly there is an issue, my hope is that this may trigger someone in power to finally step up to the plate and do whats right.
Â
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@Jayne Brennan @Big Mike ......We should clear the Capital Building in Olympia of the current residents and turn it into a mental hospital. At least then it would be put to good use, it may even save the taxpayers money. Go To Meetings is a great program that would work for government business.
I actually think that some of the people that I serve in the community with mental illness could do a better job.....
 @FED__UP  @Jayne  @Big It would give them like-minded company....
This is the best example of how gun control is not the problem it is mental health. This needs to be fixed. I am not claiming to know how to fix it but it does need to happen. Law makers need to wake up and quit pushing their worthless agendas and fix the real problems.
 @Thepriest Again the equating of gun control and mental illness...
Are you saying that every person who commits a gun offense is "mentally ill"? That all the bad guys running around with stolen or illegally purchased guns are simply "sick in the head"?
Question: Are YOU willing to pay the additional taxes needed to provide proper mental health screening and care - including building new modern facilities - to care for and house all the mentally ill people we have in this country? Because I doubt if you understand how sever the problem is, and how out of shape our mental health treatment system is in this country.
But, back to gun control - the vast majority of gun crimes are not committed by those with mental illness, they are committed by people looking to profit from hurting and victimizing other people. You gun people rant that we all need to have guns to protect ourselves from the burglars, the robbers, the muggers...most of whom are simply bad people, not mentally ill. And, if the average bad guy were to claim "insanity" as a defense, you people would be screaming from the rafters that they deserve prison hard time, not "a cushy bed in a mental ward"...You even want to make a national list of ALL of the mentally ill people in this country, to keep them from buying a gun - in order that YOU don't have to be registered as a gun owner.
And you seem to ignore one simple fact: owning a gun is a CHOICE, being mentally ill is NOT.
Do we need better mental health care in the US? Absolutely, no argument on that...but don't do it because of the relatively minimal number of mentally ill people who might harm someone with a gun, do it because it's the right thing to do. And be prepared to pay for it, either in taxes or in health care coverage costs.
And THEN take the actions needed to control the guns and who has access to them...which would cost a lot less than a barely adequate fix for mental health.
Â
Because owning a gun is a CHOICE, being mentally ill is NOT.
NRA should help pay for this problem !
@scychan Troll!
 @justsayin  @scychan Well, given the current mantra from the NRA about making a list of mentally ill people being the cure-all for gun problems, perhaps they should do their part.
Because owning a gun is a CHOICE, being mentally ill is NOT.
This is what happens when you make cuts to public health and Western State Hospital has to shut down a wing.Â
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http://www.komonews.com/news/local/131832858.html
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Instead of trying to ban guns, give the crazies treatment and/or lock them up. And you don't need to raise taxes to do it, spend the money you have more responsibly Olympia!
 @NW-Economist "Instead of trying to ban guns"
Are you really saying that the mentally ill are the "real gun problem"? That all those muggers and burglars and bad people are really just sick in the head, and sending them all to Western State will fix the problem?
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And...are you REALLY ready for the new taxes needed to fix the system?
 @OrcasThunder  @NW-Economist They are definitely part of the problem.  However, gun bans, etc. are going to do nothing for the gang bangers and thugs.  Criminals don't give a rip about laws.  I suppose it would be nice to add some time to their sentence with new laws, but that's about it.  And it wouldn't happen in hug a thug WA state.
 @NW-Economist "The only people who obey gun restrictions are the people who would never commit crimes in the first place!"
And the question that creates is will the law abiding gun owners who want to sell a gun when the background checks are required for all sales follow the law? Including the ones who now sell without asking about who is handing them the money?
Or will they then become lawbreakers?
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 @OrcasThunder You just want to create a black market for goods, the drug war obviously taught you nothing.
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The difference is someone who isn't mentally ill can be reasoned with and more likely to be expected to behave rationally than someone who isn't. Mentally ill people will commit crimes and ignore laws no matter what. Your laws are pointless unless you deal with them first.
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The only people who obey gun restrictions are the people who would never commit crimes in the first place!
 @stamperzann  @NW-Economist re the mentally ill and guns..."They are definitely part of the problem.".
But a small part of it.
The efforts by the NRA and other gun lovers to put it all on the mentally ill is not only absurd, it is insulting!
MOST gun violence is a matter of anger, so called self defense, and criminal activity. The vast majority of "mentally ill" would never dream of picking up a gun to rob someone, break into someone's home, steal someone's car or shoot at a stranger from a speeding car. And yet the 2nd Amendment people have chosen to require ALL of those with mental problems listed in a national database - just so the gun owners can avoid being on a list...all because of a manufactured paranoia that some government agency can use to sneak into their homes and steal all of their guns. In a real rational world, those paranoids would be listed at the TOP of the mentally ill must not own a gun list...
And tighter laws on sales of guns WOULD help to reduce the number of guns sold privately that end up in the wrong hands. Unless, of course, all these law abiding gun sellers would simply ignore the law - but then, that would make them criminals who need to serve prison time.
 @NW-Economist You're spot on. The folks at Western State are equipped and trained. They do a wonderful job. I can tell you that first hand. The people there that do the jobs they do are saints and I have the utmost respect for them. Mental illness is real and there needs to be a system that can handle it. Most people don't realize that it's estimated that approx. 1% of the population has schizophrenia. That's not including bi-polars, or other phsychosis. Think about that.
 @Scoondog  @NW-Economist I agree, the people who do this work are great people, and the need is far more than we are providing for...
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BUT...will this "fix" the gun problems? Not likely - because owning a gun is a CHOICE, being mentally ill is NOT.
 @NW-Economist  @Scoondog "What's insane is you are trying to put restrictions on sane law-abiding citizens but you want all the crazies running lose with nothing to keep them in check. Do you somehow think they can't kill without guns?"
Where in the alternative existence you reside in have I ever said anything even close to that?
I would welcome a society that is willing to pay for the facilities and staff to provide a place for the mentally ill to get real help and treatment, AND for those who do not need the confinement to actually get the walk-in clinics to help them.
But this current society does not have that kind of giving spirit - they will not provide the funding, will not allow all "those people" to "live on the public's largess", will not face up to the challenge of fixing this broken system. You cry about all the drunks and weirdos in Pioneer Square, but won't even fund a place for them to go to the bathroom, or take a shower...because it's "coddling" them at the taxpayer's expense.
 @NW-Economist  @Scoondog "it's not unreasonable to seize a mentally ill person and hold them against their will when the alternative is that they go out and lose their judgment and kill people."
It's also not unreasonable to seize a gun owner and hold them and their guns against their will when the alternative is that they go out and kill people."
Are all gun owners going to do this? No, of course not. But then not all mentally ill people are likely to do this either. In fact, most people who are considered "mentally ill" are far more likely to be the ones who would never put themselves in a position of harming ANYONE - EVEN themselves.
But look at many of the past threads on this forum (and it's much better version Intense Debate) - I remember many posts that mentioned having guns, how anyone (including - or especially - law enforcement personnel) trying to take them away would meet with lethal force...and there were often those who ended their posts with "and we have guns"...
And I have yet to see anyone posting about how they will come over to your place and "go crazy and do strange and wild things and rip your heart out and in general have a good time"...which leads me to think that perhaps the real crazies in this country are the smart ones who understand that making such threats CAN bring those people who want to "seize a mentally ill person and hold them against their will when the alternative is that they go out and lose their judgment and kill people.".
Look at the number of people - and your posts seem to indicate that includes you - who own guns and rant so often about some shadowy plan of the "government" to take your guns away...some - not all - feel so strongly about this that most mental health professionals would strongly consider them as certifiably paranoid and delusional and candidates for treatment. And yet THESE same gun owners are the ones shouting the loudest for the mentally ill to be kept away from guns?
That almost sounds like a cry for help.
 @OrcasThunder  @Scoondog You must have missed the words "against unreasonable searches and seizures," it's not unreasonable to seize a mentally ill person and hold them against their will when the alternative is that they go out and lose their judgment and kill people.Â
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What's insane is you are trying to put restrictions on sane law-abiding citizens but you want all the crazies running lose with nothing to keep them in check. Do you somehow think they can't kill without guns?
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The level of contradiction you're living in is staggering.Â
 @NW-Economist  @Scoondog "Nowhere do I see a right to be insane."
Then you are blind.
The phrase: "promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity" promises that right. The insane do not participate in the general welfare, nor are they benefiting from the blessings of liberty - through no fault of their own.
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"this is an effort to get you to understand how to prevent"
If they are unable to get a gun because of a background check, that might prevent them getting one. If they are able to get one from a legal seller where no background is required, then they WILL get a gun.
 @OrcasThunder  @Scoondog You have a major problem here, if there should be a "list" that possibly encroaches on freedoms, then lets look at rights spelled out in the bill of rights.
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We have a right to bear arms which SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
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Nowhere do I see a right to be insane.
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Regulating guns in any way will never solve even 0.000001% of the problem.
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The reason we are discussing this here is that it is inevitable that one of the people western turned loose will eventually kill someone and this is an effort to get you to understand how to prevent rather than have you cry about guns when and if they do it and happen to use guns, vs knives, bombs, axes, etc.Â
 @Scoondog  @NW-Economist "could we give the gun topic a rest, please!"
OK - when the gun advocates stop saying that fixing the mental illness system will "solve" the problem with guns in the hands of bad people.
I am all in favor of fixing the mental illness problems in this country. But I do not agree with the movement to have a national list of the mentally ill, just so that the gun owners can avoid being on a list of their own. Mental illness is NOT the gun problem in this country!
 @OrcasThunder  @NW-EconomistI must've missed the gun part of the article... Guns are another topic altogether. The point of the article is we need more beds... could we give the gun topic a rest, please!
I agree.
I could see the handwriting on the wall when this was done about 2 years ago. Penny wise and pound foolish. I'm sure the Police are getting tired of dealing with these people who repeat offend too.