Pee wee league sued for allegedly including 12-, 13-year-old players
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SILVERDALE, Wash. -- Hard-hitting action in pee wee football has prompted hard-hitting action in the courtroom.
A player's family is suing the team over what it considers unsafe practices. The issue involves older kids allegedly being allowed to play against much younger kids.
"The game is rough enough as it is without doing additional things to increase the risk, and this definitely increases the risk when you have seventh graders playing with fifth graders," said parent Dale Barr.
Barr's 10-year-old son, Sterling, had been playing on the Silverdale Pee Wee B-team for 10- and 11-year-olds when suddenly 12- and 13-year-olds were allowed on. Practice suddenly became a dangerous situation, according to Barr.
"My kid was taking some pretty serious hits," he said. "He's a tough kid. He's out there, taking it."
Some complained, Barr said, and those who did were kicked off the team. Now the field of play is the courtroom with the filing of a lawsuit.
"We want to, frankly, make sure there are no serious injuries that occur on the field," said Jim Ruttler, and attorney representing Barr's family. "And we feel, in good conscience, we can't ignore this situation and just walk away from it."
The lawsuit says player safety is critical, especially in light of the serious injuries like the one sustained by Zackery Lystedt, whose case changed laws on how concussions are handled.
Th age range of players hadn't been an issue for the league in previous years. But the Barrs were told there aren't enough 12- and 13-year-olds to form a team., so they are being allowed to play down a grade.
The suit says the measure could yield dangerous results.
"There's the additional component of age, strength, agility, testosterone -- a strength factor that I just don't want to put my child on the field with those kind of kids," said Barr.
The attorney representing the league did not wish to comment.
A player's family is suing the team over what it considers unsafe practices. The issue involves older kids allegedly being allowed to play against much younger kids.
"The game is rough enough as it is without doing additional things to increase the risk, and this definitely increases the risk when you have seventh graders playing with fifth graders," said parent Dale Barr.
Barr's 10-year-old son, Sterling, had been playing on the Silverdale Pee Wee B-team for 10- and 11-year-olds when suddenly 12- and 13-year-olds were allowed on. Practice suddenly became a dangerous situation, according to Barr.
"My kid was taking some pretty serious hits," he said. "He's a tough kid. He's out there, taking it."
Some complained, Barr said, and those who did were kicked off the team. Now the field of play is the courtroom with the filing of a lawsuit.
"We want to, frankly, make sure there are no serious injuries that occur on the field," said Jim Ruttler, and attorney representing Barr's family. "And we feel, in good conscience, we can't ignore this situation and just walk away from it."
The lawsuit says player safety is critical, especially in light of the serious injuries like the one sustained by Zackery Lystedt, whose case changed laws on how concussions are handled.
Th age range of players hadn't been an issue for the league in previous years. But the Barrs were told there aren't enough 12- and 13-year-olds to form a team., so they are being allowed to play down a grade.
The suit says the measure could yield dangerous results.
"There's the additional component of age, strength, agility, testosterone -- a strength factor that I just don't want to put my child on the field with those kind of kids," said Barr.
The attorney representing the league did not wish to comment.
Congratulations to the 2012 B-String Champions* you must very proud of your accomplishments!
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*Required three waived-down 12-year olds; to include the coachâs 3rd year QB son.
why would a coach want his son to play for three years on the same string? there was plenty of other opitions for these kids. the other kids in these situations have always gone to other clubs to play with kids their own age or in this case go to junior high and play. this coach cleary had a hidden agenda to have his son play quarterback, for another year, to help win a peewee championship he has yet been able to do. it is unfortunate that this lawsuit has ever taken place and embarrassing to those involved but just has unfortunate and embarrassing that a "wannabe" coach thought it best to let his son play with kids two years younger while he new, being the football coordinator, that there was other opitions for his 7th grade son. i hope the loyal members of silverdale peewees understand the true motives of this guy.Â
@seahawksrule
The true motive is to gain a competitive advantage on the field, even if that means bending the rules. Silverdale is by far not the only team to play loose with procedure. I would pose the other undefeated team skirted rules earlier this season as well. They know what they did and others know as well. Enjoy the victory without honor.Â
I have personal knowlege of this, as I am a parent in Kitsap. Our B string, 10-11 yrs, played North Mason B string and there were Junior high kids playing against our 5th graders. My son did great but these kids should have been playing for their jr high team. The Pee Wee Central Council here does not follow their own rules, never respond to parents/coaches complaints and are not doing their job for the clubs. I can't wait until my son is in Jr. High so I don't have to put up with all this nonsense.Â
@luv4hawks
Rumor, so take it for what itâs worth is the 12-13 year olds that were waived-down to play on NMâs B-String, were eventually told by the league to go back to their A-String. Allegedly they no longer have 12-13 year old boys playing on B-String. Yes they have a couple of HUGE 11 year olds. I am friends with a parent of one of them. They are big, but age appropriate.
Instead of having the 12 and 13 year olds play DOWN a level, why not have them play UP a level and see how they like that?
 @NevadaBob There is no upper level....
Ah, the angry parents have arrived to tell us all how their 13 year old is being treated unfairly for smashing up 10 year olds.Â
I wholeheartedly agree with the parent's frustration. Kids can change incredibly between the ages of 10-11 and 12-13. Remember when you grew three inches and gained fifteen pounds that one summer? Most of these kids don't have NFL aspirations...it's just an enjoyable, competitive activity that should be safe to the expectations of parents allowing their children to participate. For those of you saying 'if the kid can't hang on the team, take him off'...this is pee wee football, not college tryouts. Do they kick out the worst tee ball player because he can't hit the baseball farthest? It's for kids, and every kid deserves a chance to play at this level.
You dont like the size start feeding your kid corn and whole milk.. thats the ticket brother high starch diet.
It really doesnt matter what grade the kids are in that doesnt matter.  I thought most these teams go by weight.
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Its not about being republican its all about the ideology.Â
If you think football is dangerous try lacrosse its like hockey with balls. ha
 @CHTtalker I played lacrosse in high school and it's a tough sport, but nothing like football.Â
I think this guy is another liberal idiot.  WOW!  Really if your kid cant hang on any of the teams then take him off the team. Maybe football isnt his sport anyhow.  Maybe you should try tennis or checkers. Damn another frivolous lawsuit thats going to waste everyones time.  Oh wait its always someone elses fault not your.  What an ass.          Obviously he doesnt think about the embarassment he is bringing upon himself and his child..  Its all about you bro.
@CHTtalker you are a freaking MORON guy!! ,its not the kid who decided to sue.and for you to try and demoralize the kid is pathetic! you need an ass whoopin.
 @CHTtalker Spoken like someone without any children, or any children they actually care about.
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 @CHTtalker I know him personally actually... he's actually a Republican... how funny is that
sooo would you sue?  Hmmmm everyone so god damn sue happy like they think they are going to screw someone over to prove a point.  how idiotic is that..Â
I wonder what actions the concerned parents took to make changes to the league before filing a lawsuit? Â Couldn't this have been resolved in a way that doesn't involve lawyers and courtrooms?
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 @Landshark It says those who complained were kicked off the team.
 @Willow That's what the one family claims, but there's no mention of those families coming forward to confirm it.
 @Landshark  @Willow No ONE was kicked off the team. Those families are HIM. And his son wasn't kicked off.
I agree that kids should be grouped by size, not age. But until that happens, the average 13-year-old (basically an 8th-grader) is much too large to play against an average 10-year-old (basically a 5th-grader). To subvert the original rules of the leagues to allow this to happen IS reckless and dangerous.Â
 @MVDad No 13 year olds are on the team........10, 11 and 3-12 year olds.... No rules were subverted. the rules allow for special waivers.
Absolutely pathetic. Football is a dangerous sport....period. If you make the decision to let your kids play football, then you know what you're getting into and you accept the risks. These kids come in all sorts of sizes regardless of their age. If you're so worried about your kid getting hurt then I would suggest you pull them out and enroll them in soccer.
 @thetruthhurts Kurt Warner and I have something in common - we would never let our kids play tackle football. There are a lot of other sports that promote exercise, teamwork, and strategy where the risk of serious injury is far less. But have you ever seen pee-wee football? 10-year-olds don't have the size or speed to be anything other than cute. To throw them in with kids who are approaching high school age is incredibly reckless.
 @MVDad  @thetruthhurts Because 12 year olds that have never played football are reckless? You must live in a land where there is significant difference between 10 year olds and 12 year olds. On this team the 10 and 11 year olds are superior players to the three 12 year olds.
@OnlyinWonderland@RaiderCop
I couldnât agree more! My whole point to ProudSpartanPop, which seems to have been lost, was that the league should have never put itself in this situation. I get the waiver system, but I cannot fathom why a waiver would be applied in area specifically intended to offer a measure of safety. It does not matter one bit if the kid(s) in question are small for their age or inexperienced. Once you give one waiver such as this, you must give waivers to all, or risk looking discriminatory. The 12 year olds have other options to play football WITH KIDS THEIR OWN AGE. The league took on this liability, now they have to deal with the fallout and PLEASE donât hide behind the children and decry others are jeopardizing their fun.
@RaiderCop
It is a very difficult position to place an organization designed for the youth of the greater Silverdale area. Not only is the player I speak of a coachâs son, but my understanding is that coach additionally is the Football Athletic Director for SPWAA. The appearance of impropriety is one that I feel should always be avoided. These types of situation and decisions made to accommodate the few are always made without the ability to be objective and whether right or wrong, the appearance alone places a non-profit organization in a precarious position, one that can and likely will affect the youth of this area for some time.  There are rules in place, specifically rules that state âthere are no play downs allowedâ.  Why establish rules only to seek a way around? A little disappointing to say the least.Â
@OnlyinWonderland No, no, no; that can't be true. According to ProudSpartanPop, they're all small and inexperienced, so itâs alright. Let me guess, the kid you speak of is the coachâs son? Sure glad the waiver system is in place to accommodate âhardshipsâ such as these, because it would be truly unfair to leave these kids with NO football options!?!
That is completely false. One of those 12 year olds is an excellent football player, a 3rd year QB and runs circles around most, despite his size. Please, if you are to counter every post, make sure you provide accurate and intelligent information.Â
I bet there is no losers in this league, everybody is a winner, hey its football whiners, stay on the porch and let the big dogs run..
I find it ironic that so many are lambasting the opponents if this accommodation and question the fortitude of someoneâs child, while simultaneously defending the right of 12-year olds to play against a 10-year oldâ¦
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Iâd presume the grouping of players by age is for the purpose of player SAFETY. SAFETY is an issue that should not have been waived.  The central council should have simply followed its own rules. By failing to do so it opened itself to a perception problem and civil liability. The rationale that the kids in question are small or inexperienced is subjective and arbitrary. What happens if a highly skilled 160 pound 12-year old asks to be waived-down to B-String? Is he denied and told he is too big, or too good? Most likely heâll get his waiver because the other kids got theirs, otherwise the council looks discriminatory. Once 12-year olds are waived, whatâs the big deal with a kid who âjustâ turned 13 right? Then again if the rules were followed and 12-13 year olds simply played A-String, this wouldnât be a problem.
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The central council should have never adjusted the ages this season. It was a misconceived idea that got off to a rocky start and is barely functioning.   Is it true the central council was prepared to waive down all 12 and 13 year olds in August because most teams didnât have enough players to field A-Strings? Luckily (smartly) that was reversed.  Without a full complement of A-Strings in Kitsap, we now subject our boys to bigger and more skilled select teams from Pierce County, who usually tromp our teams.
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Is one of the 12-year olds in question the son of the Silverdale Coach? Did the other teamâs coaches go along because of loyalty to their coaching fraternity?
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The parent of a 10-year old who signs up their son to play football has a reasonable expectation that their child will not be playing against A-String aged kids. 12 -13 year olds can play at their junior high school or get waived to another Kitsap team with an A-String.
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The central council FAILED to follow its own rules. Rules based on safety. The council members, coaches and parents involved in this arrangement opened themselves to this liability.Â
 @RaiderCop Mr. Barr, no one is questioning the fortitude of your son. If I was a prognosticator (ok maybe I am) I would say that your son would be happy to play and is probably deep down inside embarrassed by your actions, especially now that he sees the team plays good football and he isn't getting to participate.Â
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What if, what if, what if. So it is ok for your kid to knock around smaller kids as long as they are 10 or 11, but not smaller kids that are 12.Â
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What did the Judge tell you Mr. Barr? The judge told you that he had no control over how a Non Profit operates and slapped you in the hand. But like the attorney that you are who does not have to pay for lawyer services, you figured you would continue your little tirade and appeal.Â
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This news clip is funny, Mr. Rutter is not your attorney. He is attached to your intellectual property firm and a figure head. He works for you. Undoubtedly the ruse being that you don't want to look like you are representing yourself. We all know what Abe Lincoln says about fools representing themselves.Â
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Yes folks Mr. Barr is using the system because it does not cost him anything (except minimal filing fees) to do so. Encouraging the stereotype.
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Mr. Barr isn't it true that your kid is obligated (through signed agreement) to Chico and you should have never moved to Silverdale? Oh wait you are an attorney and figured you could use your firm and skill to fight off Chico if they chose to use that contract against you.
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The irony being that Chico is not crying about your kid leaving, I wonder why.
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I think your kid was not expected to get playing time in Chico because they are usually pretty darn good. So you brought him to Silverdale thinking he would have a better shot of playing. When you found out there were 12 year olds, you didn't bother to find out how many before you decided that your kid may not play as much as you thought and with the Misses urging pulled him from the league.
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After you found out who the 12 year olds were and realized none of them play the same position as your kid, you wanted to bring him back to the team. However your kid had been replaced. When the league said "no can do" you threatened a law suit. "Sure there is room for my kid, just get rid of the 12 year olds". "oh you don't want to get rid of the 12 year olds, fine I will sue you".
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Mr. Barr even came to a game or two with the County's Prosecuting Attorney (allegedly) in hopes of seeing kids get hurt so they could say "see I told you so". What he saw was that the other team had 5 guys that were bigger than any kid on our team (including the 12 year olds) and no one get hurt by a 12 year old. Which again would be tough to see because the only 12 year old that gets significant playing time is about 80lbs.
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This is not about safety for Mr. Barr folks. Safety is the red herring, this is about his kid not getting to play because he made a rash decision.
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The reality is, that the Council is within its rights to entertain waiver requests from their football clubs. that is what they did. These are people that have been coaching or facilitating youth football in our area for years. They made smart decisions and considered safety. None of them objected, because they know that all kids are not created equal and that the 3-12 year olds on the Silverdale team were either small or lacking experience and as such not considered a danger to other kids.
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Come watch the game today at Hawkins Middle School (Belfair) and see for yourself. You will leave, not knowing who the 12 year olds were and wondering WTH is this Mr. Barr talking about.
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Keep trying to get your pound of flesh Mr. Barr, you are just embarrassing yourself, your family and your law firm (Constellation Law Group).
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As football mom, I find it absolutely disgraceful that you would ever intentionally belittle a child or what he is possibly feelingâ¦. Shame on you PROUDSPARTANPOP ââ¦Would say that your son would be happy to play and is probably deep down inside embarrassed by your actionsâ¦â If you are a parent, why in the world would you purposely let your 12 or 13 year old play against smaller children? Is it so they can stand out? Well, letâs point out the elephant in the room and say, OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO STAND OUTâ¦. The children are larger than the smaller onesâ¦. There is a reason why children are categorized by age⦠the only people benefiting from the waivers are the parents who are pushing the waivers (will your child not shine in his appropriate age group?!?!?)⦠I gotta ask, do you really think your child is that great of a player when they are supposed to be in a completely different level and you are holding them back so they outshine children years younger? Bottom line, there are options for 12 and 13 year olds and they are at the Junior Highs/ Middle Schoolsâ¦. Time to take them where the children need to play⦠and FYI, they would actually grow in football if they are challenged by their own age group, and not pouncing over children clearly youngerâ¦.
@ProudSpartanPop
Iâm not Mr. Barr.
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Although I would suggest you may want to refrain from character as(in)saults, directed towards Mr. Barr and/or his son on a public forum since such comments could be used in court of law to proffer a hostile environment at the hands of Silverdale parentsâ¦
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You can rationalize the decision all you want, but I doubt the waiver process was intended to allow variances on safety. Waivers granted on subjective factors such as size, speed, experience and justified by nebulous influences like a coachâs experience. Lawyers live for stuff like this. If all the adults involved in this decision could not see the possible vicarious liability, then shame on them.
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Is the age grouping a rule or merely a guideline? Did the league check with governing bodied like USA Football or Pop Warner to see what their position is on such subjects?
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Is one of the 12-year olds in question the coachâs son? If so could that have influenced the vote?
@ProudSpartanPop
So let summarize your many musing, will we:
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1Â Waivers are limitless in scope and can be granted for anything, including issues of child safety.
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2 Itâs permissible to waive-down players as long as said child is small in stature, lacking in skill or limited in experience. The standards used for the above matrices are whatever is decided at that moment (see waivers).
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3Â None of the above arbitrary, capricious or subjective actions should be viewed as reckless, harmful, or discriminatory since a room full of coaches agreed to them.
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4Â Lending credence to the action is the fact that no other parents in the league have filed similar legal action.
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5Â With possible litigation pending, some Silverdale parents fail to realize that, they should refrain from making pejorative remarks on a public forum, thus creating the perception and providing evidence of a hostile environment within that organization.
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6Â People who use words with more than three syllables must be some slick, silver-tongue solicitor.
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7Â When you run out of intelligent argument, resort to personal affronts.
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I donât expect you to agree with the argument against of waiving-down older kids to play with younger kids, after all your origination is benefiting from that very arrangement. Itâs not like Silverdale would not have been able to field a B-String without the three 12-year olds. It does appear it was done more out of convenience than anything else, to include the convenience of the coach who asked his peers to grant him this indulgence.
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It does not matter if the kid in question is 80 pounds or 180 pounds. It is simply reckless and libelous to grant waivers based on vague criterion such as a kids perceived skill, ability, physical growth, mental state, prepubescent development, etc. You should probably avoid that rationalization.Â
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BTW, yes NM has some big kids, as does SK, but apparently they didnât resort to bending the rules in order to play.
 @RaiderCop Yes one of the 12 year olds is the coaches son and weighs maybe 80 lbs (a real threat to the bigger kids that tackle him all the time).
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So what you are suggesting "lawyer lingo guy" is that none of the other parents representing the several hundred other kids (playing on council teams) who have told Mr. Barr to get lost and not joined his lawsuit do not value the safety of their kids? I can't believe you said that genius :-) RED HERRING.
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BTW the Spartans won a 6-0 nail-biter against a much bigger team of 10 and 11 year olds. And again no one was hurt.
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If their by-laws allow for waivers how can they have violated their by-laws..? Are you an unemployed lawyer? You and your superior complex are entertaining, I will give you that..
@ProudSpartanPop
âLawyer Lingo Guy,â wow thatâs epigrammatic!
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What story am I presenting? Isnât you that has continuously provided the alternative narrative, countering Mr. Barr and the KOMO News report?
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In a deeply litigious society, codified rules governing the safety of children, even self-imposed ones, should not be altered, negated, amended, changed or ignored without due diligence or on a case by case basis. Did the central council consult an attorney when considering violating its own rules? Can the coaches get together, agree and counter the state concussion law if they see fit?Â
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When every team published the new age groupings last summer, did an asterisk appear by each group denoting an exception for size, ability and experience?Â
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âSafety is the red herring...â WOW you really wrote that? Of course this isnât about Mr. Barrâs son who is not currently playing. Itâs about the safety of EVERY kid playing and what the central council did or did not do in regards to its own safety rules. Safety issues of children are not designed for convenience, nor should they be negotiable. Too bad a group of âpeople who are continually and actively involved in developing these kidsâ failed to see the liability in this action and put themselves in this situation.
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Iâll ask again, because your silence is deafening; is one of the 12-year olds in question the son of the Silverdale Coach?
 @RaiderCop Obviously the people who are continually and actively involved in developing these kids felt that the waivers were for this very reason.Â
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It's your story lawyer lingo guy. Stick to it. Even if you are wrong.Â
everyone is talking about the kids size and and that they should be able to play. everyone seems to have forgotten the story a few weeks ago about the 12 year old that weighed 300 pounds. Will all of you that are saying they need to toughen up, will you let your 11 or 12 year old play against him?
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 @saywhat So you wont' sue when your kid get's seriously injured right?Â
 @Charlie Mukilteo  @saywhat Is he getting injured because he played a 12 year old or because it was just a fluke football play. People get injured in football all the time regardless of the ages.....The ages are arbitrary, not necessarily responsive to any size, skill or ability.... I bet Mr. Barr would sue....
 @saywhat there comes a point when the kids are playing against someone 2-3 times what they weigh.Â
Size ( height, weight) and age should be factors in the league. Teams should have balance with a mix of both experienced, mature and inexperienced, immature players. Â This is a beginners league.Â
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As for the law suite, I sure hope this wasn't some kind of surprise. Â I mean they must have discussed this. Â I'd pull my kid out if I felt it were unsafe but certainly discuss it before hand.
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Don't play tackle football than.
My son is a 10 year old player on Silverdale B squad. I am the dad that was very adament when my son started to play that if anything was unsafe, or if he broke a bone, football was over. My choice, My boundary, My Son, My responsibility. With that the coaches and other volunteers at Silverdale Pee Wee's have had nothing but their players (including my son's) best interests and safety at heart at all times! If I didn't feel my son was in a safe environment or situation it is my choice and responsibility to remove him from that situation. It is unreasonable, not to mention pathetic and egotistical to think that the rules should be changed to accomodate the minority, let alone one. It is unfortunate that Mr. Barr felt it necessary to misuse this situation. We are role models for our children. Everything we say and more importantly do is a lesson to them. I choose to take resonsibility for my actions in letting my children play sports. There are more than 20 other families doing the same. We learn to accept each others differences and use them to complement each other. That makes us a team, supporting our kids playing as a team. As in life, not everyone makes every team. I don't want Mr. Barr trying to build my house, and I'm sure he doesn't want my to try and do his dental work. I'm not planning on suing him for that...........or maybe I should.
@Jeff Wallis Mr. Wallis - you state:  :It is unreasonable, not to mention pathetic and egotistical to think that the rules should be changed to accomodate the minority, let alone one" I suppose accomodating THREE makes it acceptable as that must be the majority? The fact remains that Mr. Barr isnot the one asking for an exception to the rules. He is simply asking that the rules be adhered to. Your position is a bit difficult to follow. Especially since is it not your child that was injured this season, wiht in fact, a broken bone and has returned to football, against your stated position "I am the dad that was very adament when my son started to play that if anything was unsafe, or if he broke a bone, football was over"? Only a little perplexing.
First of all Mr. Barr. Kids go through Puberty at differant ages. When playing football it's good to have some bigger players. Do you think the NFL would want all of their players the same age and weight. There needs to be different size players for different positions being played. I'm sure you are not making very much money as a peice of crap bottom feeding lawyer so you thought I will try to sue a non profit to make some money. I feel sorry for your son. Nothing in life is easy. He quit after the second practice. I was taught to work hard in life, and you can succeed no matter what obsticles you face. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen