State's anti-communist law persists despite 50-year-old ruling

OLYMPIA, Wash. (AP) - It has been just shy of 50 years since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a Washington state law barring members of the Communist Party from voting or holding public-sector jobs is unconstitutional.
Evidently, that is not enough time to remove it from the books.
Washington is one of a handful of states with similar laws still in existence despite their having been declared unconstitutional decades ago.
With few exceptions - most notably Georgia, where an anti-communist oath was administered to incoming Dunwoody City Councilmembers as recently as last year - the laws are treated as part of a bygone era, not unlike state statutes prohibiting interracial marriage, the last of which was removed from Alabama's books in 2001 even though the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional in 1967.
Rep. Joe Fitzgibbon, D-Burien, first introduced a measure to repeal Washington state's anachronistic anti-subversives law last year, figuring, he says, that it would be an unceremonious end to a dead-letter statute originating from a dark period in our nation's history.
He was wrong. Though his bill passed out of the House Judiciary Committee, it did so on a party-line vote, with four Republicans opposed.
With only so much political capital to expend on contentious legislation, House Democratic leaders declined to move it forward, and it never made it to the floor for a vote.
This year, Fitzgibbon lowered his sights, introducing House Bill 1062 with the understanding that it likely would not even get out of committee.
By the end of Friday, as a key deadline for policy-related bills passed without the bill coming up for a committee vote, that understanding was confirmed.
"There are some (Democratic lawmakers) that think this is a bad political issue for us, but I really don't," he said. "I don't think there is a lot of fear in our state these days about the prospects of a communist takeover."
That may be, but several decades removed from the Red Scare, any suggestion of kowtowing to communists can still inflame passions.
After Fitzgibbon spoke in favor of the bill in the House Judiciary Committee earlier this month, Rep. Matt Shea, a conservative Republican from Spokane Valley, was ready with a sharp rejoinder.
"For the large Ukrainian, Russian, North Korean and Chinese populations in the state who fled communism - including my wife, whose father was arrested by the KGB, who suffered horrible persecution, whose friends were sent to the gulag in Russia - do you see this as a little bit of a slap in the face to them that communism is not subversive?"
Responded Fitzgibbon: "I don't believe we persecute people based on their political beliefs in Washington state, and I would say that applies to communists as well as anybody else."
In addition to Washington state and Georgia, Pennsylvania and California have laws requiring state workers to take an oath swearing they are not subversives or members of a group dedicated to overthrowing the government. At least five other states - Connecticut and Virginia among them - have laws prohibiting subversives from working in emergency management. Illinois has a statute barring communists from seeking elected office.
Thanks to a series of 1960s U.S. Supreme Court rulings that found them to be unconstitutional, those laws have long been all-but unenforceable.
The ruling that struck down Washington state's statute on subversive activities, handed down in 1964, found that the definition of a subversive group was too vague.
Three years later, the Supreme Court ruled that Eugene Frank Robel, a worker at the Todd Shipyard in Seattle, had been wrongly fired from his job building warships over his membership in the Communist Party.
"Robel put the nail in the coffin" for laws limiting communists from public-sector jobs, says University of Washington Law Professor Stewart Jay. "If you can't fire (a communist) working in national defense, what can you do?"
But while the Supreme Court struck down loyalty oaths that predicate public-sector employment on a lack of affiliation with a subversive group, it has upheld less-expansive pledges to defend the United States from its enemies and uphold the Constitution.
Including those that also have anti-subversives oaths, at least 13 states have such laws on their books, including Florida, Tennessee and Arizona.
In California, Marianne Kearney-Brown, a math instructor at California State University East Bay who refused to take such an oath as a Quaker and a pacifist was fired from her post in 2008 before swiftly being reinstated and assured that she would not be forced to take up arms.
Periodically, a lawmaker seeking to stem the perceived tide of cultural decline will propose a new loyalty oath. Last month, a Republican state lawmaker in Arizona, Rep. Bob Thorpe, proposed legislation requiring high school students to swear an oath defending the Constitution before being allowed to graduate. That measure, House Bill 2467, is pending.
In general, though, such efforts are on the wane - a state of affairs not lost on communists themselves.
"It's a good thing to get rid of these laws," says Libero Della Piana, vice chair of the Communist Party USA. "But the reality is that people are more worried about foreclosures on their houses than subversives in student government."
Evidently, that is not enough time to remove it from the books.
Washington is one of a handful of states with similar laws still in existence despite their having been declared unconstitutional decades ago.
With few exceptions - most notably Georgia, where an anti-communist oath was administered to incoming Dunwoody City Councilmembers as recently as last year - the laws are treated as part of a bygone era, not unlike state statutes prohibiting interracial marriage, the last of which was removed from Alabama's books in 2001 even though the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional in 1967.
Rep. Joe Fitzgibbon, D-Burien, first introduced a measure to repeal Washington state's anachronistic anti-subversives law last year, figuring, he says, that it would be an unceremonious end to a dead-letter statute originating from a dark period in our nation's history.
He was wrong. Though his bill passed out of the House Judiciary Committee, it did so on a party-line vote, with four Republicans opposed.
With only so much political capital to expend on contentious legislation, House Democratic leaders declined to move it forward, and it never made it to the floor for a vote.
This year, Fitzgibbon lowered his sights, introducing House Bill 1062 with the understanding that it likely would not even get out of committee.
By the end of Friday, as a key deadline for policy-related bills passed without the bill coming up for a committee vote, that understanding was confirmed.
"There are some (Democratic lawmakers) that think this is a bad political issue for us, but I really don't," he said. "I don't think there is a lot of fear in our state these days about the prospects of a communist takeover."
That may be, but several decades removed from the Red Scare, any suggestion of kowtowing to communists can still inflame passions.
After Fitzgibbon spoke in favor of the bill in the House Judiciary Committee earlier this month, Rep. Matt Shea, a conservative Republican from Spokane Valley, was ready with a sharp rejoinder.
"For the large Ukrainian, Russian, North Korean and Chinese populations in the state who fled communism - including my wife, whose father was arrested by the KGB, who suffered horrible persecution, whose friends were sent to the gulag in Russia - do you see this as a little bit of a slap in the face to them that communism is not subversive?"
Responded Fitzgibbon: "I don't believe we persecute people based on their political beliefs in Washington state, and I would say that applies to communists as well as anybody else."
In addition to Washington state and Georgia, Pennsylvania and California have laws requiring state workers to take an oath swearing they are not subversives or members of a group dedicated to overthrowing the government. At least five other states - Connecticut and Virginia among them - have laws prohibiting subversives from working in emergency management. Illinois has a statute barring communists from seeking elected office.
Thanks to a series of 1960s U.S. Supreme Court rulings that found them to be unconstitutional, those laws have long been all-but unenforceable.
The ruling that struck down Washington state's statute on subversive activities, handed down in 1964, found that the definition of a subversive group was too vague.
Three years later, the Supreme Court ruled that Eugene Frank Robel, a worker at the Todd Shipyard in Seattle, had been wrongly fired from his job building warships over his membership in the Communist Party.
"Robel put the nail in the coffin" for laws limiting communists from public-sector jobs, says University of Washington Law Professor Stewart Jay. "If you can't fire (a communist) working in national defense, what can you do?"
But while the Supreme Court struck down loyalty oaths that predicate public-sector employment on a lack of affiliation with a subversive group, it has upheld less-expansive pledges to defend the United States from its enemies and uphold the Constitution.
Including those that also have anti-subversives oaths, at least 13 states have such laws on their books, including Florida, Tennessee and Arizona.
In California, Marianne Kearney-Brown, a math instructor at California State University East Bay who refused to take such an oath as a Quaker and a pacifist was fired from her post in 2008 before swiftly being reinstated and assured that she would not be forced to take up arms.
Periodically, a lawmaker seeking to stem the perceived tide of cultural decline will propose a new loyalty oath. Last month, a Republican state lawmaker in Arizona, Rep. Bob Thorpe, proposed legislation requiring high school students to swear an oath defending the Constitution before being allowed to graduate. That measure, House Bill 2467, is pending.
In general, though, such efforts are on the wane - a state of affairs not lost on communists themselves.
"It's a good thing to get rid of these laws," says Libero Della Piana, vice chair of the Communist Party USA. "But the reality is that people are more worried about foreclosures on their houses than subversives in student government."
Republicans believe the Constitution ended at the second amendment. What hypocrites.
Make a bloody stink about it! If Republicans want to continue to support laws that the SCOTUS has long since ruled unconstitutional, RUB THEIR NOSES IN THAT! Show to the whole world - and most especially to the voters of this state - that Republicans are themselves both anachronistic and also deliberately suppressive of civil rights and basic freedoms. Demonstrate that Joe McCarthy lives on in the GOP.Â
Face it, the GOP is one of the biggest threats to civil rights and basic human freedoms and dignity in this entire world. Very often, they are right up there with the Chinese government and the Taliban in their intolerance of diversity. Their only "saving grace" is that they have never quite been able to turn their intolerance into mass carnage - though I think many of them would if they could. They deserve to be "outed" at every opportunity.
Utopia doesn't exist and will never exist in our life times. There will always be a ruler, a person taking and giving. Marxism on paper is beautiful, poetry, utopian bliss but in real life (aka reality) it's fatal.
I ask it again...how will you force people into Communism without violence? Will one of you apologists please answer this?
@sometimesright We did long ago, go look up the definition of the word as defined by the folks that thought up the theory.
Remember, you like the violence. You live in one of the most violent countries in the world and that country also causes more violence against innocent people then any other country. Yours dreams are coming true.
@T_BONE_WALKER @sometimesright You didn't answer the question. Try again! Even with the violence in our FREE society, we still are a drop in the bucket to any communist one! So once again, how will you force people into Communism without violence?
@sometimesright @T_BONE_WALKER Its not communism that fails, its the fact that they don't have a document like our Bill of Rights that makes communism or any other form of government fail. The form of government is pretty much meaningless because as you can plainly see they're all failing because they are all busy violating civil rights. It happens to every society as it begins to close around its citizens and it will happen here eventually.
How anyone continues to be a communist after every colossal failure it has produced throughout the last century, in every country and culture where it has been tried, is beyond me. It just goes to show, ideology blinds a person to reality.
@WillowThere are and have not been any communist countries.Â
Speaking of collosal failure, hows that deregulated predatory capitalism working for ya? Falling wages, terms and conditions for the last 30 years and in the last 3 years you transferred 40%% of your wealth up to the criminals that bankrupted this country. Infrastructure crumbles beneath your feet, homes caving in, ghettos in every city, democracy sold to the highest bidding lobbyist for a campaign contribution, unlawful acts of war against countries we have no beef with, kids doing 6 tours of duty, police murdering citizens, constitution in the trash can, torture, murder citizens on the president's whim in secret with no trial or jury of peers? We murder, we torture, we transfer wealth upward. What type of system is that? Communist, Socialist, fascist military dictatorship or democratic republic?
@T_BONE_WALKERÂ Nobody is rationing my food. Nobody is telling me where I have to work, which stone cold apartment block I have to live in or what political meeting I have to attend. No matter what kind of crap you try and come up with our HOMELESS live better than 90% of the people did in Communist countries. BTW..you all need to ditch the no True Scotsman fallacy here. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and poops like a duck...it is a duck!
@T_BONE_WALKER @sometimesright I see you have given up defending Communism...I always know when a symathizer like yourself has been defeated when they skip past normal ad hominems and just go to straight out name calling. Sorry if your bankrupt ideology is just that. I know it is hard to defend from the truth!
@sometimesright The only fact you have got right today is that you're sorry, I agree, you are one of the sorriest morons I ever seen.
@T_BONE_WALKER @sometimesright I have already shown you repeatedly that there were and still are people living in communism...I am sorry that you keep resorting to the no True Scotsman fallacy to get away from its atrocities that go along with it.Â
@T_BONE_WALKER @sometimesright Then what is it? You have yet to answer that question too. You can't seem to answer any of them. All you do is bad logical fallacies. If YOUR version of Communism has not been tried, then please tell us what it is. After that tell me how you propose forcing the rest of us into it without violence.Â
@sometimesright There are no people living in communism. It hasnt been tried yet.
@T_BONE_WALKER @sometimesright You still have failed to show that even with all of our problems how we are still not better off than 99% of anyone living in a Communist country? We are still the wealthiest, most free and healthiest country that has ever existed. Our poor people live better than most of the world. If you own a tv your are in the top 10% of the world, if you own a car you are in the top 2%. Our "ghettos" are not REAL ghettos...you need to go to Mexico, Africa, Muslim Countries, China and see REAL ghettos with no sewers, no running water, etc. Even the poor in our country have plumbing, electricity, TVs, cars, satelite tv and cell phones. You are so ethnocentric and blind that you can't even see how good we have it. You need to travel more!
@sometimesright I've highlighted a number of issues in my second paragraph above for you to explain away twice now. Both times you read it you chose to ignore facts and not comment because it describes what this place has turned into over the last 40 years and you simply cant admit it due to your ideology. What is it like to have all of what you thought was truth turned into lies?
@Willow well... that's sort of the point Willow... hardly anybody is... despite all the hate rhetoric you hear out of the extreme right... They've resorted to calling moderates "socialist" now. It demonstrates how extreme the ultra-right has become.Â
This year, Fitzgibbon lowered his sights, introducing House Bill 1062 with the understanding that it likely would not even get out of committee.
Soooo, why doesn't he spend his time doing something worthwhile? What a perfect example of how politicians are such clowns.
@Voiceofreason Because there are evidentily still a few uneducated apologists around here who have a slobbering love of this bankrupt system. They live in a bubble where they are not forced to see the horrors of Communism first hand and still have a utopian dream that they have figured a way to get there without crushing everyone in the process!
Were this some old "Libertarians cannot hold public office" law, the outcries from the uber-cons on here would be non-stop calling for the unjust law to be struck... The constitution and bill or rights matter to these uber-cons so long as they can manipulate them to their agenda. Outside of that they'd just as soon spit on it. This is the double standard world these people reside in. Ultra-extremists... right or left.... Just the same.
@TruthinAdverts That is because Libertarians have not killed 100 million people in less than 100 years. Nobody is fleeing to get out of a Libertarian country!
@sometimesright Can you list for us the libertarian country(s) you had in mind as being libertarian?
@T_BONE_WALKER @sometimesright No, that is my point. Wizzzz another one went over your head. Libertarians are not bothering ANYONE, that is the point of being a libertarian! Good Lord you need an education, it is almost sad!
Our state is in a huge financial crisis and this is how our elected officials are spending their time? Just another democrat living in lala land where they ignore the real problems right in front of them and campaign under the masquerade of social justice.
Want to bet he's pro Gun Control too ! Maybe he is doing this to get some national recognition,lol
@OldGoldBar Gun Control is the ONLY way to force people to live in these Communist countries.Â
It seems Mr. Fitzgibbon has a burning desire to see his name in the paper, and isn't smart enough to come up with a legitimate cause to champion, so he's blowing his horn on some stupid, and I may add waste of money, measure like this. I guess it's the only way he can justify his existence.
@wickeddriver He is too young to remember Communism and was probably educated in our horrible public school system which has hidden its atrocities. Another young liberal useful idiot!
Jowsuf..last one I promise...here is the problem with you picking and choosing who gets to be excluded from the "Communist" title even if they themselves considered themselves one. It is another logical fallacy that was thunk up by the famed atheist turned Christian Antony Flew..I will take it from the Wikipedia so you will believe me...
No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.
This is like saying that because the Conquistadors killed so many Native Americans that they were not true Christians!
@sometimesright you promised...
That was fun...my point is proven...there is no way but to force people without using violence to be Communists. People are naturally capitalists. I have something you want, we barter for a price and you buy it from me. I have a skill that you need, we barter for a wage and I get your job done. My main motivation is greed to take care of me and my family. That is the natural way of things. Communism, which is taking everything from people, pooling it together and giving out according to ones needs is not natrual and that is why you ultimately have to force people via violence to go along with it. If one person chooses to hoard and then sell their extras on the side for a profit or work on the side for extra money, Communism collapses.Â
@sometimesright The only thing you've pointed out is that you have no idea what communism is or what capitalism is.
Deregulated predatory capitalism failed 6 years ago right in front of your eyes and you still dont know it. Families have gone backwards in terms of wages, terms and conditions for 30 years and you dont know it. You have proven that you dont know what is right in front of you while you spout off on what you have no idea about.Â
It is always fun when a moron like you exposes himself to the public.
@T_BONE_WALKER Are you going to ever answer the question or just keep pounding your party line? The problem wasn't too little regulation...it was too much! If the government had kept their mitts out of the home loan business we wouldn't be in this mess. We are still in capitalism as is most of the rest of the world and we are still 100% better off than any poor soul who had to live under Communists! So answer the question and quit dodging it. How do you force people to be Communists without violence?
Jowsuf's favorite research tool Wikipedia....An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.[2] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely an irrelevance.Â
Name calling is just that..ad hominem is when you stop debating the point and only attack your opponent in order to avoid having to debate!
@sometimesright Look at this guy go!
@jowsuf @sometimesright You going to answer the question or not?
@jowsuf @sometimesright You have shown your proficiency in ad hominem fallacies, can you now show your proficiency in answering the question? It is ok..it was a trick question...there is no way to get to a Communist utopia without a lot of violence. I explained it above.Â
@sometimesright Do you really think your behavior is going to allow you to have a discussion with anybody? I wouldn't keep going on with a child acting this way, and I won't with an adult. You can spam more or go sulk somewhere, I don't care, but I'm not wasting any more of my time giving you attention.Â
Let me make it simple for jowsuf "Stalin" here...How do you force people to be Communists without violence?
BTW...I am just curious...since Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, the Kims, and all the rest of them haven't been able to figure this out, maybe some of you Communist apologists can answer it...how do you force people to be Communists if they don't want to give up their private property, monetary capital, resources, etc?Â
@sometimesright The US middle class just had 40% of their deminishing wealth transferred to the rich in bailouts and bonuses, it was easy.
None of your friends ran communist countries, they were dictators.
@T_BONE_WALKER @sometimesright B.S....please back this up....no True Scotsman..again and again...I have already shown you how they were Communists, how they called themselves Communists and how they operated and in the case of North Korea still do operate their countries as Communists. You still can not show me how a single one of them were better off than even the US during the Depression. The fact is that they voted with their feet! You are so ignorant of these facts it is astonishing...also you still refuse to answer the question...HOW WILL YOU GET YOUR COMMUNIST UTOPIA WITHOUT FORCING PEOPLE VIA VIOLENCE?
@sometimesright None of those people were communists.Â
@jowsuf @sometimesright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_communism Wow look..your holy bible of Wikepedia considers all of the people I listed as Communists...
@T_BONE_WALKER @sometimesright no True Scotsman fallacy AGAIN!! Please also explain what is fascist here? Or are you also just using it as an ad hominem as I suspect? I swear you two clowns need to go get an education in logic and how to debate! Neither of you can show back up your claims, all you can do is say that THESE Communists were not "True Communists" and then call people who actually back their claims up some kind of ad hominem like "fascist" or "you need medicine"..Are you capable of backing up your silly ideas?
@sometimesright They taught you how to support fascism without violence.
There has been no true communist country.
@jowsuf @sometimesright More ad hominem along with your continual refusal to answer the basic problem of Communism...can you answer this or are you only capable of logical fallacies?
@sometimesright Have you considered a medication from the benzodiazepine family?Â
@jowsuf @sometimesright BTW...waiting for an answer to the question....How are you going to force me to be a Communist without violence?
@jowsuf @sometimesright Now what you just did is a REAL ad hominem attack. My "name calling" actually fits what you are doing. You on the other hand are not capable of backing up your points so you THEN ditch into ad hominem fallacies. I just showed you that your own holy bible here lists these very people as Communists and the best you can do is tell me to "calm down" and say I am "making a fool of myself" by pointing out your ignorance? Time for a logical fallacy class to go along with the 20th Century History you are lacking!
@sometimesright Holy crap dude, you need to calm down. You're making a fool of yourself spamming this board with nonsense and name calling.Â
@jowsuf @sometimesright "how do you force people to be Communists if they don't want to give up their private property, monetary capital, resources, etc"? How do you do this WITHOUT violence?
@jowsuf @sometimesright Are you going to answer the question or just keep apologizing for your Communist murderers?
@jowsuf @sometimesright Maybe you should have told them that...it might have saved a few 100 million lives!