Supporters, opponents make final push on same-sex marriage
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SEATTLE - The November election is drawing near and supporters of marriage equality are making sure their voice is heard while making a big push across Washington state in favor of Referendum 74. Meanwhile, opponents of the measure say it's important not to redefine marriage.
People on both sides of the issue were out on Saturday, trying to convince voters how to cast their ballots.
In Seattle, participants in an R-74 rally said they are promoting peace and acceptance for all. They hope that voters will say yes to the measure, which would uphold the state Legislature's vote earlier this year to allow same-sex marriage.
Imagine, they say, what it's like to walk a mile in their shoes.
"I can't even believe that we have to sit here and raise all this money to fight for something that should just be," says R-74 supporter Ceasar Hart.
"It doesn't matter if two women or two men want to get married - it's none of anybody's business," agrees another R-74 supporter, Kelsey Ward.
Hundreds of R-74 proponents marched for marriage equality through Capitol Hill.
"It's to bring about visibility and to show the community that we are here, have a voice and (are) ready to make some change here," Sarah Toce said at the rally.
At the same time in Everett, there was a much smaller demonstration, but with a stance that participants said is just as important - do not redefine "marriage."
"Gays and lesbians can live any way they want to, but they have no right to redefine marriage," says R-74 opponent Chuck Whitfield.
Whitfield says his side of the issue is often mislabeled as hateful.
"In order to show love and compassion to gays and lesbians, we want to do it kind and in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord," says Whitfield.
The November election is less than a month away - it is then we will see the final fate of Referendum 74.
A "yes" vote on R-74 is to uphold the state Legislature's vote earlier this year to allow same-sex marriage and a "no" vote is to overturn it.
People on both sides of the issue were out on Saturday, trying to convince voters how to cast their ballots.
In Seattle, participants in an R-74 rally said they are promoting peace and acceptance for all. They hope that voters will say yes to the measure, which would uphold the state Legislature's vote earlier this year to allow same-sex marriage.
Imagine, they say, what it's like to walk a mile in their shoes.
"I can't even believe that we have to sit here and raise all this money to fight for something that should just be," says R-74 supporter Ceasar Hart.
"It doesn't matter if two women or two men want to get married - it's none of anybody's business," agrees another R-74 supporter, Kelsey Ward.
Hundreds of R-74 proponents marched for marriage equality through Capitol Hill.
"It's to bring about visibility and to show the community that we are here, have a voice and (are) ready to make some change here," Sarah Toce said at the rally.
At the same time in Everett, there was a much smaller demonstration, but with a stance that participants said is just as important - do not redefine "marriage."
"Gays and lesbians can live any way they want to, but they have no right to redefine marriage," says R-74 opponent Chuck Whitfield.
Whitfield says his side of the issue is often mislabeled as hateful.
"In order to show love and compassion to gays and lesbians, we want to do it kind and in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord," says Whitfield.
The November election is less than a month away - it is then we will see the final fate of Referendum 74.
A "yes" vote on R-74 is to uphold the state Legislature's vote earlier this year to allow same-sex marriage and a "no" vote is to overturn it.
From just the volume of posts I would say that this is quite a circus that I will be glad to see over November 6. Whether you are for or against gay marriage you can at least agree that there is far too much hate in the world and far too little love to go around.
2 Peter 2:4-10
4Â For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5Â and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6Â and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7Â and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8Â (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)â 9Â then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10Â and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed.
Religious mumbo jumbo has absolutely nothing to do civil rights or the US Constitution. If there is a god, then it is between god and the sinner and not the right of the religious and pious to judge other citizens for the lives they lead. These religious people need to stop judging others and get a life.
 @jd94b They need to stop judging and "get a life"?  So then what gives you the right to judge them?
 @jd94b I feel very judged by all the hateful and unwarranted attacks on Christian people who have religious views regarding homosexuality. Equal rights....great, but it is obvious that the agenda behind this legislation goes much further than that.
Jude 1:7 ...as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
 @Mark Romans 13:8  Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
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1 John 4:7Â Â Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
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Matthew 5:43 âYou have heard that it was said, âYou shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.â But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.
Romans 2:3-5
3Â And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Â Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5Â But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
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Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: âThe Lord knows those who are His,â and, âLet everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.â
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1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Â Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10Â nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Â And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
 @Mark And this means what? Â
 @Mark hi
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Okay, before I go any further, let me say that I'm not totally for or totally against gay marriages. I have some personal pros and cons of each side. Same with the religious views I've read here, I believe in a higher power that we will all answer to someday, but I also have some pros and cons of on that issue.  Besides that, I am temporarily living in another state right now so won't be able to vote on the issue anyway. But I do UNDERSTAND WHY gays and lesbians want to get legally married. I have a couple of stories as an example, but I will just tell you mine. Many years ago my now husband of 30 years and I were just living together. Fine, neither one of us wanted to get married at the time. But he ended up getting in very bad car accident and was in Harobr View Medical Center ICU. What I found out after that was that just because we were living together sharing a house, rent, bills and everything else, I had absolutly NO legal rights what so ever regarding his care, his personal possesions, ANYTHING! Even when they moved him out of ICU and I tried to get his personal possesions they flat refused to give them to me because I wan't his wife or immediate family. Now any of you out there be it gay or straight, how would you feel if the person you loved more than anything was in that situation and you were basically on the outside only able to look in. I was lucky,maybe because I was a woman and him a man that his perents helped me and stood with me and made sure that I could go in and see him even when it was supposed to be immediate family only, but in a lot, probably most cases, gays won't have that support system, because they are gay. How would you feel, just sayin...............................
My question on this one....why not grant equal rights, but not try to redefine marriage? I get why gay and lesbians would want to have those rights (and I think they should), but I have felt they are also trying to convince others to accept the way they live their lives. This type of legislation makes me wonder if they don't just want equal rights, they want to convince the world that if you have a religious view contrary to homosexuality, that you are a bigot and hateful (which I know is not true of SO many). They project a very incorrect view of so many people that it is hard for me to trust their intentions. by all means, equal rights, but enough with all that propaganda. Â @linderÂ
 @Aep  @linder I don't really know what propaganda you are referring to.  I want all civil rights awarded to all people of this great nation.  I don't really care if people are religious or not and I can honestly sit here and let you know, I don't really care if you agree with homosexuality or not.  That doesn't matter to me, and most likely doesn't matter to a lot of gay people.  What does matter is that all people should be treated equal and should be awarded all of the same rights as anyone else.I don't know of anyone who is trying to redefine marriage.  Your meaning behind the word is probably different than my own. Â
 @linder "just sayin"
And saying it very well.
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If this passes, I give it 10 years before we are debating polygamy and bestiality...Â
Ban marriage between god and government.
The voters will decide this issue in November. I will be voting against same-sex marriage based on my beliefs. My God tells me that  Homosexuality is a sin and surporting a sin is a sin. I will rather make you mad because I stood for God and supported marriage 1 man 1 woman than make God mad at me because I supported same-sex marriage.
I support God, Country and Godly marriage. Marriage = 1 man and 1 woman there is nothing else.
 @Hotrod Thank you for being willing to defend what you believe!
 @Hotrod It bothers me that you are getting slammed for your comments. Isn't a large part of the "equality-of-marriage" movement about holding to ones convictions? You are vocal about your beliefs and they are vocal about theirs.
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My opinions aside, I want to thank you for sticking to your guns. You are one in a million, Hotrod!
 @Hotrod We have people that are hungry, schools and infrastructure falling apart, daily violence and shootings, I could go on and on. Don't we have better and more important issues to spend our energy and resources on. Let them get married, who frickin' cares? How does it affect you? Seriously I'd really like to know. Get over it. If you, and other so-called Christians", don't vote for it you're not supporting it. This whole debate is so stupid and a total waste of time. Believe what you want but don't force your beliefs on everyone else. Let's get over it people and move on.
By the way "I support God, Country and Godly marriage." What is "godly" marriage anyway. What if 2 atheists are marrying? Is it still a "Godly" marriage? Or should that be banned also?
I'm not really picking on you or Christians, in fact I respect everyone's right to believe how they choose, but this whole issue/debate seems so trivial compared to what is going on in this world.
While I appreciate you not picking on Christians :), I think that you should understand their beliefs better so that you understand why this is such an important issue. I can see your point (as someone who doesn't hold certain beliefs), but some insight would help you feel less exasperated.. @69GT  @HotrodÂ
 @Hotrod Hate to tell you this Hotrod, but your God is probably already p*ssed off at you for any number of other thoughts or things you have done.Â
R74 clearly protects religious organizations from having to perform any marriage that goes against their beliefs. This referendum in no way crams anything down anyone's throat. People of certain faiths can continue to believe and uphold what they believe to be true.
And in the meantime two people who are in a loving supportive long term relationship can now legally be recognized and afforded the same legal rights (not special rights, the SAME rights) as heterosexual couples.
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 @goldeneagle How about a person of faith who photographs weddings for a living?  Will they have gay weddings crammed down their throat against their religious belief?
No, because they are using different "determining factors". In the case of wedding photographers, they are discriminating against a couple who is gay simply because they are gay & that offends them. In the case of a pharmacist refusing to fill a prescription, being a patient having a prescription filled is not a "protected class" (as sexual orientation is). So, while I abhor the hypocritical pharmacists who refuse to dispense a leggaly written medication with a doctor's prescription (and even without one, since Plan B does not require it), it is NOT the same as denying someone a service based on a protected classification (race, sexual orientation, gender, handicapped).
 @TruthinAdverts How does it follow that if some discrimination is ok therefore all discrimination is ok?  Forcing a photographer to participate in a ceremony against her religious beliefs is walking the line.
In reality a gay couple has already tried to hire a photographer who was not comfortable shooting their ceremony. Â And instead of TOLERATING the photographer's views they filed a lawsuit in order to use government to punish the person for their beliefs. Â Yay for tolerance.
 @VertexIt would be their own choice that caused that...
 @two loons Pharmacists can refuse to fill birth control prescriptions if it goes against their religious beliefs so there may be a way for businesses who are against it for religious reasons to get around having to be involved in same-sex marriages, ie: the photographer etc.Â
 @LocalLady Many people seem to think that you can actually reserve the right to deny service to anyone you choose.  However that is false.
What an asinine argument you present.
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Most, if not all, people who work in the "wedding industry" advertise, and by advertising, they target their audience, those they want to reach. If they are actively advertising in gay-related ways (such as Seattle Gay News), then they are going to get gay clients. If the do not, then they most likely will not.
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I seriously doubt that a gay couple is going to purposly choose a photographer that they have not "vetted" to make sure they are a good fit. I know when I got married in 1990, that is exactly what I did. I "rejected" 4 photographers before finding the right one.
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If anyone chooses to operate a "service" business, they have to check their personal beliefs at the door. You simply are not legally allowed to descriminate - it's a federal law. If they feel so strongly about it, then perhaps they should consider another line of work.
 @Hotrod  @Vertex  @goldeneagle so by your reasoning, if it's someone's "belief" that black people aren't good... they shouldn't have to serve black people at their restaurant?Â
 @OrcasThunder Ok, well then there you have a perfect example of how gay marriage might affect someone:  it might put them out of business.
 @Vertex  @two loons "someone who works in the wedding industry should have gay marriage crammed down their throat"
I know for a fact that there were a lot of people who felt that inter-racial marriages violated some biblical passage.
They either went with the flow, or went out of business...
 @two loons So you think someone who works in the wedding industry should have gay marriage crammed down their throat by being legally forced to facilitate gay marriage in violation of their religious beliefs?
@Vertex @goldeneagle I agree with you on this. I don't believe that anybody should HAVE to perform a service that goes against their beliefs, causing the person (in their mind) to sin. There have already been issues of this nature and it will only increase if same-sex marriage is allowed. R74 may not be forcing things yet, but that's next.
 @Vertex  @goldeneagle the law won't change the fact that people who own businesses that serve the public cannot discriminate. I tried to explain the true meaning of "we reserve the right to refuse service" to you earlier. It doesn't mean you can refuse to serve someone for being gay, black, disabled, etc. It means you can refuse service to someone who is being disruptive, actively bothering other customers, or abusing you.
I think it's hilarious that people want to "protect" the integrity and sanctity of marriage by voting no on allowing gays to marry. There is no integrity or sanctity of marriage anymore thanks to heterosexuals. Marriage has become a joke. I bet the gays will respect and honor the sanctity of marriage moreso than the straight people because straights take marriage for granted whereas every gay I've ever met that wants to marry at some point in their life appreciates and understands what marriage is truly about...  giving your all to that one person that you want to love and cherish forever.
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And to all you religious fanatics out there... if marriage is so sacred then maybe you should focus your efforts on banning divorce. :)
 @Tattooed_Angel its a yes vote on Reff. 74 that will win marriage equality for the lgbtq population in washington state. Please check your facts tattooed angel before posting. Ronnie Equality Lidstrom on facebook/CascadeRainbow Community Center Mount Vernon Wa.
@Ronnie Equality Lidstrom I had it right. If you read what I wrote then you would see that I was commenting on those who want to vote no on Referendum 74 because they don't want marriage equality. Please READ the comments Ronnie Equality Lindstrom before commenting.
Can't entirely agree TA - Lumping straights together as having ruined the sanctity of marriage is a fairly narrow view.Â
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People work through whatever past issues might influence their perceptions in relationship matters over a period of time, and some get it right. Having been married before and very unhappily, I was fortunate to meet THE one after a number of years. There are a lot of long lasting straight marriages that are based on mutual respect, love and kindness.
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There are just as many abusive gay relationships out there as well as straight.
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I have a good friend who has been with his partner for 25 years and they are for all intents and purposes, married. Yet, for their peace of mind I would like to see them have and opportunity to marry legally and enjoy the same benefits as straight married couples. Before meeting his husband, my friend had been in relationships with other men who were very abusive. My friend was raped by a live in boyfriend who beat him and one guy broke his jaw.
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There are mean people out there, gay, lesbian or straight. My point is that every person is responsible for their conduct in a relationship and I just don't believe that one group of people are superior over another.
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I'm voting yes on R-74.
@Smokin Bear Your right. I wasn't meaning to lump all straights or all gays into one catagory. I understand that there are people regardless of sexual orientation who are abusive.
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I am not against divorce either. I understand that there are some relationships that just aren't meant to be. However my comment was aimed at those people who want to vote no on Referedum 74 to "protect the sanctity" of marriage. If they were truly trying to protect the sanctity of marriage, then they would also be against divorce. Here is a breakdown of divorce rates by religion: http://divorce.lovetoknow.com/Divorce_Statistics_by_Religion
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I am all for marriage equality. I also will be voting yes on Referendum 74. I was just commenting on what a joke it is that most of those who are against allowing gays to get married are hypocrits. They want to "protect the sanctity" of marriage however some of them don't even respect that sanctity themselves.
Gotcha. Right on.
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 Here's an Idea: Maybe county auditors  should include a free sawzall with every marriage application - that should cut down the divorce rate by at least half....
(Its football Sunday - I had to PUN-t.......bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha)
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Romans 1
Godâs Wrath on Unrighteousness
18Â For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19Â because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20Â For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21Â because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Â Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23Â and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible manâand birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24Â Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25Â who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26Â For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Â Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28Â And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29Â being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30Â backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Â undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32Â who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Hate to break it to you, but we are NOT a theocracy - we are a secular nation. "Your" god is not necessarily the same as another person's god, and for you to think that you have the right to force your religious beliefs on others is completely abhorent.
 @LocalLady So do gay and lesbians have a right to force me to accept their lifestyle as okay? Equal rights....absolutely, but I can't help feeling that their campaign is really to convince others that it isn't okay to disagree with them.
 @Aep  @LocalLady You certainly do not need to accept anyones lifestyle but your own.  Just as anyone else does not have to accept you for who you are or your own beliefs.  However, I would never deny you any civil rights.  You are an American, and as such have every right to civil rights.
 @Mark How much should I charge to sell my daughter? Also, I've noticed the neighbors do not keep the Sabbath, can I call the cops? Or do I have to kill them myself?
 @two loons  @Mark No, you don't have to do those things, but they neither should your neighbor write legislation to make you agree with what they are doing, (I am not being sarcastic and say this respectfully). The campaign that I have seen in favor of this legislation has been very geared toward making people who think and live contrary to them look like hateful bigots. I know for a fact that many (I won't generalize and say all) just don't agree and they don't harbor any negative feelings, even when their deeply held religious views and beliefs are attacked. I have a hard time trusting the intentions of a group of people who use that kind of propaganda.
 @Aep  @two loons  @Mark And you see, that is the issue that I have.  You are using your own personal religious beliefs to not allow all people of this nation equal rights.  No, I am not saying you are hateful or a bigot.  I am saying that some Christians need to look beyond the bible and realize what is good for all people of this nation.   Equality for all.  Not equality only for Christians, but for all walks of life. Â
 @Mark the only thing worse than unrighteousness is self righteousness
 @goldeneagle Amen to that,  that is evident on both sides (pro & con) it's pretty simple, if you are a voter and you're for gay marriage, vote yes, if you are opposed vote no, debate over, problem solved.
 @goldeneagle  @Mark What exactly did Mark do that was "self righteous?" Post an excerpt from The Bible? We post quotes, stats and statistics all day on this forum from various authors and sources. Is it because of the fact that it's from The Bible that offends you? I see no self righteousness in Mark's post, I just see an excerpt from a source. Some of us believe it to be a trusted source, and others do not. To each their own. In the end, we all will know the truth.
 @DMT Please see y-jesus.com
 @DMT Really? you know this for sure? please enlighten me as to how you are sure of this, it's amazing that this "story book written by humans" has survived millions of years and has ALWAYS said the SAME THING from since it's beginning, where do you suppose the inspiration for these storybooks came from? every book has an author.
 @Wolfen  @goldeneagle  @Mark No offense, but it seems that most folks cherry pick bible quotes. I was force fed religion and know the entire bible cover to cover. Upon adulthood, I rejected it and religion -lock, stock, and barrel. While I do in fact like the there's this really cool guy in that book that wanted people to love each other, I can't take all the incest, murder, slavery and subjugation of women. I think it is possible to see Mark's post as self-righteous by the mere fact that he's throwing Bible quotes at us like weapons.
 @Wolfen  @goldeneagle  @Mark The source happens to be a storybook written by humans.
 @Mark Thanks for clarifying things. I know of quite a few kids who are rather disobedient to their parents...should I bring them to you for their executions?