WSDOT will not reject leaking 520 Bridge pontoons
SEATTLE -- Leaks have been discovered inside some of the pontoons destined for the new 520 Bridge, but the Washington Department of Transportation says it will not reject them.
A Problem Solvers investigation first revealed the leaks and the fact that some insiders say the pontoons are in no shape to carry 10,000 cars every day.
WSDOT officials confirmed there are still some leaks within the four biggest pontoons, and on Wednesday they allowed media members inside one of the pontoons to see for themselves.
Inside Pontoon V -- one of the 360-foot-long floating concrete structures that will hold up the 520 Bridge -- white lines show where contractor Kiewit made prior repairs to fill in cracks and stop any leaks.
The two cells -- or interior compartments -- that were part of Wednesday's media tour were mostly dry, though there is evidence that there are still some leaks.
WSDOT officials say one leak in the pontoon was actually from a cell next door where there's water intentionally placed for ballast, and they say once that water is removed the small crack won't be a problem.
"If it has that amount of leaking, it's not going to harm the integrity of the structure," said program director Julie Meredith.
An October Problem Solvers investigation revealed that all six of the first pontoons were leaking. Some of WSDOT's own engineers questioned the construction quality of the pontoons and, in some cases, would not structurally approve pontoons that were missing some key steel re-bar pieces.
On Wednesday, WSDOT officials admitted that the four largest pontoons are still leaking from their shorter end walls.
"Now we've brought an expert on to take a look at the cracks we're seeing and to come up with a repair that we believe is going to last the lifetime of the structure," said WSDOT's Jeff Carpenter.
Meanwhile, work is progressing as one of those leaking pontoon -- Pontoon W -- is now anchored on the east side of Lake Washington and Kiewit is building on top of it.
Two engineers with expertise in floating bridges say the state should scrap the first pontoons, but on Wednesday WSDOT made it clear that would not happen.
"We do not anticipate anything in this work on-going that would mean that we would reject these pontoons," Meredith said.
A newly-hired crack-repair contractor is doing underwater inspections of the pontoons and expects to start work on the actual repairs after the first of the year.
A Problem Solvers investigation first revealed the leaks and the fact that some insiders say the pontoons are in no shape to carry 10,000 cars every day.
WSDOT officials confirmed there are still some leaks within the four biggest pontoons, and on Wednesday they allowed media members inside one of the pontoons to see for themselves.
Inside Pontoon V -- one of the 360-foot-long floating concrete structures that will hold up the 520 Bridge -- white lines show where contractor Kiewit made prior repairs to fill in cracks and stop any leaks.
The two cells -- or interior compartments -- that were part of Wednesday's media tour were mostly dry, though there is evidence that there are still some leaks.
WSDOT officials say one leak in the pontoon was actually from a cell next door where there's water intentionally placed for ballast, and they say once that water is removed the small crack won't be a problem.
"If it has that amount of leaking, it's not going to harm the integrity of the structure," said program director Julie Meredith.
An October Problem Solvers investigation revealed that all six of the first pontoons were leaking. Some of WSDOT's own engineers questioned the construction quality of the pontoons and, in some cases, would not structurally approve pontoons that were missing some key steel re-bar pieces.
On Wednesday, WSDOT officials admitted that the four largest pontoons are still leaking from their shorter end walls.
"Now we've brought an expert on to take a look at the cracks we're seeing and to come up with a repair that we believe is going to last the lifetime of the structure," said WSDOT's Jeff Carpenter.
Meanwhile, work is progressing as one of those leaking pontoon -- Pontoon W -- is now anchored on the east side of Lake Washington and Kiewit is building on top of it.
Two engineers with expertise in floating bridges say the state should scrap the first pontoons, but on Wednesday WSDOT made it clear that would not happen.
"We do not anticipate anything in this work on-going that would mean that we would reject these pontoons," Meredith said.
A newly-hired crack-repair contractor is doing underwater inspections of the pontoons and expects to start work on the actual repairs after the first of the year.
When the finished bridge fails because of the mentioned defects, the wsdot people in charge and the current governor should be held responsible. They can stop the project now.
Â
Â
My favorite quote
Â
Now we've brought an expert on to take a look at the cracks we're seeing and to come up with a repair that we believe is going to last the lifetime of the structure," said WSDOT's Jeff Carpenter.
Â
IF the bridge fails catastrophically in 6 years, isn't that the lifetime of the project?
Well, soon there will be a new sheriff ...er... Governor.
Please read the attached Seattle Times article to get a realistic story about the bridge pontoons. KOMO is not providing fair and balanced reporting.
Â
http://seattletimes.com/text/2019676918.html
Â
Hugh Jardon: You are full of it. KOMOâs reporting shows the defects for what they are. Not the spin offered by WSDOT in the Times article. Nice Troll thoughâ¦redux.
Â
@Transpopro sure there are some defects,more than likely some blame lies with the WSDOT engineer that designed the project, engineers sometimes lose touch with reality, something will work out great on CAD but cannot be constructed in the real world. Komo is putting one heck of a spin on it to sensationalize it and make it more news worthy! Sounds like a couple WSDOT engineers might have a little egg on their faces and were removed from the project and they ran to KOMO....
You are obviously not an expert on corrosion, especially in a fresh water environment as it pertains to depth and oxygen content necesarry for corrosion. There were many other factors considered regarding green coated rebar concerning its inherent problem of the coating cracking. The fact is that where it has been determined to be needed it is in the design for this bridge. All of us contractors and engineers who bid on the project, win or lose know this, exept maybe one of the 'few' who know little of any substantive value.
Itâs all about the lawyers. WSDOT is locked with the Design Builder in the contract dispute dance and everyone involved is in lockdown and shut up mode for fear that they will make matters worse. I would like to have the Engineer of Record post his position on these issues for the benefit of the taxpaying public gaining full understanding of the true risk to this project.
Yes, I am one of the few. Having worked both sides of the engineering fence I am not impressed with the concrete work documented by the KOMO videos. I have one concept for you regarding the uncoated rebar: Value Engineering. Someone probably talked themselves into the notion that a floating concrete structure will not be inundated with water and, therefore, the epoxy coated rebar could be eliminated as a cost cutting measure. I have fought that battle many times in the past. In short, my floating concrete structures (including those floating on soggy ground) have either a waterproof barrier to keep the water out or coated rebar to protect the steel from the water. These pontoons do not.
If you actually have worked out in the field you're one of the few. I have held the hand of many engineers who have not while we discussed what would and would not work, then worked together to come up with a solution.I agree there are problems with both construction and design, spin or no spin. On another note why in the heck they would allow anything other than epoxy coated rebar is crazy, are you kidding me? Un coated rebar and this thing has that much area underwater? Who's idea was that?
Â
âEngineers sometimes lose touch with realityâ¦â Thatâs rich! Being an Engineer myself and having worked in the field over three decades, Iâm going to have to call BS on that one. No, there are serious problems with these pontoons that everyone can see for themselves from the videos and all the spin, denigration and name calling in the world wonât cover up the fact that they are flawed, are rusting, and sinking as we sit here jousting with each other. The Washington taxpayers deserve better than what is being passed off as good construction practice here.
Why is KOMO the only one who thinks there is a conspiracy. Here is another positive story about the repairs and condition of the pontoons ! http://kxro.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/520-pontoons-still-in-good-condition/
Â
 @Hugh Jardon Probably because you work for the contractor, Hugh, and you're the only one who thinks that KOMO is the only one thinking there is a conspiracy. Troll!! ;-))
Newly hired crack repairer... what happened to the old one...? ... did they quit or get fired for refusing sign and to take the liability on how poorly the pontoons are made... 'likely' . Governor time for you to JUST SAY NO!
WSDOT need to sack up and reject there things... seriously we are paying for a NEW structure and your telling me it is defective from the start.. would you buy a new car discover our burning oil would you accept that? NO.. you would drive back to the dealer and say give me another car! The governor needs to step in as she is almost out and SAY NO these are to be REJECTED and REPLACED Immediately! she doesn't have to worry about re-election as she is almost finished so time to do the noble thing and use that authority to overrule the DOT goose stepping morons and fix this RIGHT!
Also, if this thing sinks, Paula Hammond and every single inspector/"expert" that has signed off on this will be held accountable right?
Â
#FATCHANCE
It may be worse than you know. Design Build projects are structured where the lionâs share of the inspection of the contractorâs work is done by the contractorâs inspectors. You would have to burrow deeply in the project documentation to determine who is responsible for signing off on the work and whether the pontoons have been accepted by WSDOT provisionally prior to their transport to Lake Washington. It makes one weep.
Our new governor needs to step in and handle this properly. VETO Paula Hammond!
If i were the governor I would step in on this one and say whoever made these things can tear them down and make new ones completely free. Make a bad product, you make it right.
Hopefully it will sink before anyone uses it.
Un freaking believable.Â
God luck getting me to pay to cross that thing, WSDOT! :D
Â
Maybe the police should worry less about legal pot and more about the shoddy bridge work and how they will rescue all the people that fall into the lake. Our government is a joke!
I am undecided if WSDOT rather be cheap and risk public safety or is afraid of Kiewit.
Â
Would they buy a brand new car, and when it came, it required all kinds of repairs, would they still buy it or demand a new one. Patch work is never good as work done correctly the first time.
Â
What was the point of hiring experts when they dont even listen to them? Oh right it was free money from taxpayers!
If a crack is observed underwater, how is it determined that the approved repair method of that crack will have a positive effect on the structure. Also, how will divers find all of the cracks on this huge structure and how often will these pontoons need to be inspected for new cracking in the future? Just sayingâ¦
 @Transpopro The cracks and the leaks can be observed inside the hollow cavities of the pontoons. I'm sure the exterior will deteriorate much quicker. I can picture WSDOT spraying that black sealant from "As Seen of TV" all over the concrete and calling it the day.Â
I wish I were.
@Transpopro The rebar in the pontoons are NOT epoxy coated? You have got to be kidding me.
Yes, I can see them running around inside the pontoons patching new leaks like Chinese mothers chasing their babies trying to get them to eat something. Unfortunately, water has no sense of humor and will just keep migrating through the cracked concrete looking for somewhere else to leak out. The point is that if you donât prevent the water from getting into the structure in the first place, you better use epoxy coated rebar to prevent the water rusting the rebar. Sadly, neither strategies were employed for the pontoons and, as a result, the design life of this structure is compromised.
Oh good, WSDOT have bought an expert....I mean they "brought "Â in an expert that agrees with them. What's a little leakage, it's not like concrete structures have a history of bursting after long exposure to slow leakage..Let's agree on this so we can get out of here early and miss the rush hour traffic.
"Eduardo Capistrano70 pts
This bridge will probably last 20 or 25 years before it needs to be replaced again. By hen, all the WSDOT staff approving it now will be retired. Remember that all that water passing though the concrete walls is also corroding the steel reinforcement bars and post-tensioning tendons."
As usual, it is a little more complex than that. The good news is that the tendons are protected by the conduits they are in from any leaking water. The bad news is that the rusting rebar in the rest of the pontoons are losing strength while the post tensioning tendons maintain their load on the structure. At some point, the stress field in the pontoons overpowers the rusting rebarâs capacity to withstand the loading that is imposed on them and something unfortunate happens to the structure, possibly in a non-ductile manner (read bad, quick, and possibly catastrophic). So, instead of having a code-mandated ductile concrete design that the Engineer of Record thinks his design complies with, a different design condition has been imposed on this dynamic structure outside the designerâs understanding. In short, the design factor of safety of these structural elements degrades from the day one.
 @Transpopro Let's not forget that if the ducts are galvanized steel, then they will leak along their spiral seams. Ducts and the grout inside of them are great, in theory, for protecting the tendons inside. However, if you are at all familiar with the State of Florida's experiences, you know that the duct and grout don't always protect tendons from corrosion. Once you allow it a pathway, water always finds a way to get to steel.
Your comment is right on the money. The galvanizing will impede the corrosion problem and the tendon grout tends to be cement rich which adds a modicum of additional protection. Water is relentless!
Why wasn't Kiewit fired for their incompetence?!?! And who is paying for this newly-hired crack-repair contractor? It sure as hell better not be the taxpayers!
I wouldn't worry about it either when it's not my money. I mean, really. When you buy something at the store and pay full price, do you really care if it has a crack?
Â
And when water is involved, is a crack that big a deal? Stupid republicans. Stop your fear mongoring
All concrete cracks. Water seeps through concrete that has no cracks. Ever put a bag of concrete mix on your garage floor? Come back a few weeks later and it will be hard as a rock from moisture passing through the garage slab. This is just an issue of an uneducated KOMO "investigative" reporter making a big deal of nothing. Sometimes I wish "journalists" had degrees in STEM subjects.
Â
For all you folks that won't drive the bridge, great. Less traffic slowing me down.
 @Hagar Please read my earlier posts about marine structures being highly post-tensioned.as it relates to concrete cracking.
@Eduardo Capistrano @Hagar Interesting read, very. So the posttensioning process somehow compresses the slab that not even seep water gets through the concrete? I have been in a pontoon for the 520 bridge and there was water, not a lot, but it was wet and there was a sump pump. Certainly no big deal. Your post is changing my opinion here... will keep reading. Thanks!
There is good information on post tensioning on line. In short, conduit is placed in the pontoon forms incased in the reinforcing cage but draped on a specific profile throughout the structure being post tensioned. The tendons are threaded through the conduits and are tensioned in a specific sequence up to the lock off tension and kept at that tension with wedges or nuts depending on whether the tendons are strand or threaded bars. The conduits are grouted full after the tendons are stressed. This process preloads the concrete structure to take advantage of concreteâs advantages in compression and to reduce any tension in the structure where concrete is weak. Having said all that, if the rebar is prematurely degraded due to water corrosion, this imposed stress field in the structure due to the post tensioning, may overpower the reinforced concrete in an unanticipated way earlier than the design life of the structure. We use post tensioning in all kinds of structures but what makes floating structures an interesting design challenge is that water intrusion into the structure must be minimized and the dynamic nature of the structure imposes unanticipated stress fields that, if the factors of safety are reduced due to poor construction technique or contractor initiated design changes, then the structure can be overwhelmed in a non-ductile way (Read: sudden, catastrophic, and expensive). Further, if the structure is overstressed during tensioning due to out of sequence tendon tensioning, early form stripping, unbalanced flotation of the pontoons, damage during transport to site, etc., then unanticipated cracking patterns will be expressed like a fingerprint if a criminal. The public discounting of the structure cracking patterns and leaking cracks by WSDOT and Contractor officials is an attempt to hide the evidence of poor structural concrete construction technique.
 @Eduardo Capistrano http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JsuNg5r4Is
Â
Wow, I seriously learned something here. You don't need much tensioning apparently to get the desired result. Okay, I am convinced. These pontoons need to be rejected. Thanks Ed.
 @Eduardo Capistrano Wow, I learned something, thanks! Is there a web site that describes HOW the post-tensioning is done? I have a Masters in Mining Engineering but this is something completely new to me. I find it fascinating.
 @Hagar  @Eduardo  @Hagar Yes, post-tensioning puts the concrete into compression. Unless you totally relieve that precompression by imposing external loading, the concrete will not crack. The original 520 floating bridge was not post-tensioned. So, yes, it did experience cracking during extreme loading and that is why you have seen some water in those pontoons.
I don't personally need to use the 520 bridge, BUT for those of you who do NEED to use it, you are already paying high tolls to use it. I DID use it 5 days a week when we were still paying tolls in the 70's and 80's, only it was much cheaper then.
Â
You current day commuters should be OUTRAGED that WSDOT is so complacent, as to deem these pontoons acceptable! Why would you tolerate anything less than 100% proficiency in the construction of the very foundation of your bridge safety.
Â
YOU are commuting today, while gambling that MAYBE the bridge will be safe for another 20 years, when it was projected to be safe for a guaranteed 75 years. Think about that! YOUR children who will be stuck with paying for the incompetency of today's bureaucrats.
ah they are fine, nothng to see here, move along!
some seriously greased palms moving this deal i'd bet.
I for one will consider that new bridge unsafe and will never drive on it without it being fixed. State also will not get my tolls on it.  Wake up Olympia and do it right!
When WSDOT started the mantra of "On Time and On Budget", they left out the part about doing it right. And so long as bean counters override engineers (this seems to happen with both public and private), the quality of the product will suffer.
 @IStateYourName Couldn't possibly agree with you more!!!
@IStateYourName yep,...Quality is always the last thing to be considered when there is a schedule..
In any project you can select two of the following: Price, Schedule, and Quality. The non-selected item suffers.Â
How quickly we all, somehow, forget.
Â
Only about three years ago, the sordid facts came to light about a little "mistake" regarding the sub-standard steel used to construct over one-hundred of the supports holding up "our" light rail tracks, (paid for with OUR tax-money)... and of course this major construction problem was never fixed either, the trains are in service... but supposedly it's "safe" too. "They" told us so.
Â
Those engineers... what do those pencil-pushing geeks know anyway? The builders seem to think they know better, and "our" elected "officials" seem to agree with them.
Â
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2008888664_webrailfraud19m.html?syndication=rss
The steel was supplied to Sound Transit under fraudulent mill certificates. Fortunately, the location of those steel casings did not affect the structural design of the structures and were allowed to be left in place. The steel supplier was prosecuted for their fraud in the matter.
 @Transpopro It doesn't matter why the steel used was understrength and substandard. It should have all been torn out and completely replaced at the fraudulent steel suppliers total expense.Â
Â
My point is that "our" officials allowed steel that was rated at only 2/3 strength of the engineer's requirements to stay in place, rather than insisting on having it re-done correctly.... and "they" seem to be playing a similar game with the lives of the public now.
I get your point. The steel in question was buried around the column bases and had marginal structural benefit. Weighing the available options, the steel tubes were left in place and the supplier compensated the Agency for the discrepancy to settle the issue. My point is the issue was identified, the design requirements were checked, and the publicâs investment in those structures was protected (and the bad guy had to deal with the FBI to boot!).Â