As Eagle Scouts return medals, gay ban still firm

NEW YORK (AP) - For the physician in Illinois, the attorney in Kentucky, the arts editor in Oregon, their Eagle Scout medals were treasured reminders of youthful achievement. Yet each is parting with his medal out of dismay over the Boy Scouts' recently reaffirmed policy of excluding gays.
"I can no longer maintain any connection to an organization which actively promotes such a bigoted and misguided policy," Dr. Robert Wise of Chicago wrote to Scout headquarters in Texas. "To that end, I am interested in removing all evidence that I was ever a Scout."
Wise, 59, is among several dozen former Eagle Scouts who have taken such steps following the July 17 announcement that the Boy Scouts of America, after a confidential two-year review, were sticking with the divisive, long-standing policy of excluding openly gay youth and adults as members and leaders.
Another of the protesters is attorney Jackson Cooper, 32, a former senior patrol leader of Troop 342 in his hometown of Louisville, Ky. In an open letter, he said he was unsure if any of his fellow Scouts were gay.
"But I do know that my now deceased mother, a lesbian, would not have been allowed to serve as a den mother if her orientation had been public knowledge," he wrote. "The thought that I have invested such a large part of my life with an organization that would have turned my own mother away breaks my heart."
Also returning his medal was Martin Cizmar, 31, arts and culture editor of Willamette Week, an alternative newspaper in Portland, Ore.
He tweeted the news: "Just mailed my Eagle Scout medal back to the BSA to protest the ban on gay scouts. Kinda sad, but important."
In a letter sent to BSA headquarters along with the medal, Cizmar detailed his scouting career with a troop in Tallmadge, Ohio.
"Though I did not know at the time, I was acquainted with a number of gay Scouts and Scouters (adult leaders)," he wrote. "They were all great men, loyal to the Scout Oath and motto and helpful to the movement. There is no fair reason they should not be allowed to participate in scouting."
Deron Smith, the Boy Scouts' national spokesman, said there was no official count at his office of how many medals had been returned. He also noted that about 50,000 of the medals are awarded each year.
"We're naturally disappointed when someone decides to return a medal because of this single policy," he said. "We respect their right to express their opinion."
Beyond the Eagle Scout protests, the Boy Scouts' reaffirmation of the no-gays policy has drawn condemnation from liberal advocacy groups, newspaper editorialists and others. In Washington state, Republican gubernatorial candidate Rob McKenna, an Eagle Scout, joined his Democratic opponent, Jay Inslee, in suggesting the policy be changed.
But overall there has been little evidence of any new form of outside pressure that might prompt the Scouts to reconsider.
The leadership of the Scouts' most influential religious partners - notably the Mormons, Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists - appears to support the policy. And even liberal politicians seem reluctant to press the issue amid a tense national election campaign.
For example, President Barack Obama has made no public statement thus far about the Scouts' policy - a notable void given that he is a staunch supporter of gay rights and also, like all presidents of the past 100 years, is the Boy Scouts' honorary president.
The American Civil Liberties Union, in its online newsletter, suggested that Obama re-evaluate White House ties to the Boy Scouts. The White House press office declined comment on the matter, and there has been little pressure on Obama from other quarters.
"People are reluctant to force him to take sides," said Richard Socarides, a former Clinton White House adviser on gay rights. "Everybody knows what side he's on anyway."
Rep. Barney Frank, an openly gay Democrat from Massachusetts, said Obama already had burnished his gay-rights credentials by supporting same-sex marriage and there were "bigger fish to fry" at this juncture.
In contrast to Obama, Republican candidate Mitt Romney does have a public position on the Scouts' policy - he politely disagrees with it.
Back in 1994, during a political debate in Massachusetts, Romney said this: "I support the right of the Boy Scouts of America to decide what it wants to do on that issue. I feel that all people should be able to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation."
A Romney spokeswoman, Andrea Saul, said in an e-mail that this remains Romney's position today.
Beyond the political arena, the Boy Scouts' stance was bemoaned in various newspaper editorials, ranging from The New York Times to the Iowa City Press-Citizen to the Salina Journal in Kansas.
"The Scouts do matter. They do a lot of good for a lot of families and boys," said the Journal's editorial. "But their influence and relevance will wane if they continue to go against a society that's becoming more inclusive, not exclusive."
Some critics of the ban say it endures because religious organizations sponsor about 70 percent of the Boy Scouts' units nationwide - and these church groups generally support the membership policy.
According to the latest BSA figures, the Mormons' Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints charters more than 37,000 Boy Scout and Cub Scout troops with a youth membership of more than 420,000, the highest figures of any denomination. Roman Catholic parishes charter about 8,500 units with about 283,000 members.
The Scouts have about 2.7 million youth members in all.
Chip Turner, a Southern Baptist who chairs the Scouts' religious relationships committee, said the no-gays policy is unlikely to change as long as it has the support of the churches most active in sponsoring Scout units.
The Southern Baptist Convention, back in 1992, adopted a resolution saying it stood in solidarity with the Boy Scouts in confronting a "sustained attack because of its refusal to allow homosexuals as Scout leaders."
Eric Hawkins, a spokesman at Mormon headquarters in Utah, said his church and the Scouts share of a goal of seeking to teach young men "essential values of character, faith and service, including those outlined in the Scout Oath and Scout Law."
"We have a nearly 100-year relationship with the Boy Scouts of America, and look forward to continuing that relationship far into the future," he said.
Among the mainline Protestant denominations that sponsor large numbers of Scout units - the United Methodist Church, the Episcopal Church and others - the picture is less clear.
Gilbert Hanke, general secretary of the General Commission on United Methodist Men, said the Scouts' membership policy would be discussed soon by a scouting ministry committee and might be an agenda item at a board meeting this fall. The United Methodists sponsor more than 11,000 Scout units with about 370,000 youth members.
The Episcopal Church - which ordains openly gay people as priests - has no churchwide position on the Scouts' policy and leaves it to individual congregations to decide if they want to sponsor a Scout unit. More than 1,100 Episcopal churches do so.
At St. Aidan's Episcopal Church in Alexandria, Va., the associate rector, Rev. Elizabeth Rees, said news of the Boy Scouts' reaffirmation of their policy made her embarrassed by the sign outside her church for the local Scout troop that meets there.
"We have a sign on our property that says, 'We welcome you,' and we have the sign for the Boy Scouts," she said. "The signs seem to be theologically opposed."
Rees says she admires the local troop, but wishes that churches supporting the Scouts could find ways to help change the membership policy.
The liberal United Church of Christ, sponsor of about 1,200 units serving more than 38,000 Scouts, is one of the few large denominations with a formal position condemning the membership policy and urging its elimination.
The effect of the policy, says the 2003 UCC resolution, is to make gays "feel diminished, invisible, and marginalized."
However, the resolution makes clear that individual UCC congregations can decide for themselves whether to cut ties with the Scouts or remain as unit sponsors.
"It's been difficult to engage with the Scouts and have a conversation," said Rev. Michael Schuenemeyer, the UCC's executive for health and wholeness advocacy. "We don't understand why they feel they need to be discriminatory."
Eagle Scout Zach Wahls, a 21-year-old activist raised by lesbian mothers in Iowa, has become a leader of the campaign against the membership policy, though he says he doesn't plan to return his own Eagle Scout medal. He believes the best chance for change lies with local Scout councils, some of which have signaled their commitment to an inclusive approach that would accommodate gays.
Deron Smith, the Scout spokesman, said instances of outright defiance of the policy by local units are "very rare."
"Any time we become aware of inconsistencies, we'll work with the local council and reiterate the policy and make sure it's in compliance," he said. "We have one policy."
"I can no longer maintain any connection to an organization which actively promotes such a bigoted and misguided policy," Dr. Robert Wise of Chicago wrote to Scout headquarters in Texas. "To that end, I am interested in removing all evidence that I was ever a Scout."
Wise, 59, is among several dozen former Eagle Scouts who have taken such steps following the July 17 announcement that the Boy Scouts of America, after a confidential two-year review, were sticking with the divisive, long-standing policy of excluding openly gay youth and adults as members and leaders.
Another of the protesters is attorney Jackson Cooper, 32, a former senior patrol leader of Troop 342 in his hometown of Louisville, Ky. In an open letter, he said he was unsure if any of his fellow Scouts were gay.
"But I do know that my now deceased mother, a lesbian, would not have been allowed to serve as a den mother if her orientation had been public knowledge," he wrote. "The thought that I have invested such a large part of my life with an organization that would have turned my own mother away breaks my heart."
Also returning his medal was Martin Cizmar, 31, arts and culture editor of Willamette Week, an alternative newspaper in Portland, Ore.
He tweeted the news: "Just mailed my Eagle Scout medal back to the BSA to protest the ban on gay scouts. Kinda sad, but important."
In a letter sent to BSA headquarters along with the medal, Cizmar detailed his scouting career with a troop in Tallmadge, Ohio.
"Though I did not know at the time, I was acquainted with a number of gay Scouts and Scouters (adult leaders)," he wrote. "They were all great men, loyal to the Scout Oath and motto and helpful to the movement. There is no fair reason they should not be allowed to participate in scouting."
Deron Smith, the Boy Scouts' national spokesman, said there was no official count at his office of how many medals had been returned. He also noted that about 50,000 of the medals are awarded each year.
"We're naturally disappointed when someone decides to return a medal because of this single policy," he said. "We respect their right to express their opinion."
Beyond the Eagle Scout protests, the Boy Scouts' reaffirmation of the no-gays policy has drawn condemnation from liberal advocacy groups, newspaper editorialists and others. In Washington state, Republican gubernatorial candidate Rob McKenna, an Eagle Scout, joined his Democratic opponent, Jay Inslee, in suggesting the policy be changed.
But overall there has been little evidence of any new form of outside pressure that might prompt the Scouts to reconsider.
The leadership of the Scouts' most influential religious partners - notably the Mormons, Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists - appears to support the policy. And even liberal politicians seem reluctant to press the issue amid a tense national election campaign.
For example, President Barack Obama has made no public statement thus far about the Scouts' policy - a notable void given that he is a staunch supporter of gay rights and also, like all presidents of the past 100 years, is the Boy Scouts' honorary president.
The American Civil Liberties Union, in its online newsletter, suggested that Obama re-evaluate White House ties to the Boy Scouts. The White House press office declined comment on the matter, and there has been little pressure on Obama from other quarters.
"People are reluctant to force him to take sides," said Richard Socarides, a former Clinton White House adviser on gay rights. "Everybody knows what side he's on anyway."
Rep. Barney Frank, an openly gay Democrat from Massachusetts, said Obama already had burnished his gay-rights credentials by supporting same-sex marriage and there were "bigger fish to fry" at this juncture.
In contrast to Obama, Republican candidate Mitt Romney does have a public position on the Scouts' policy - he politely disagrees with it.
Back in 1994, during a political debate in Massachusetts, Romney said this: "I support the right of the Boy Scouts of America to decide what it wants to do on that issue. I feel that all people should be able to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation."
A Romney spokeswoman, Andrea Saul, said in an e-mail that this remains Romney's position today.
Beyond the political arena, the Boy Scouts' stance was bemoaned in various newspaper editorials, ranging from The New York Times to the Iowa City Press-Citizen to the Salina Journal in Kansas.
"The Scouts do matter. They do a lot of good for a lot of families and boys," said the Journal's editorial. "But their influence and relevance will wane if they continue to go against a society that's becoming more inclusive, not exclusive."
Some critics of the ban say it endures because religious organizations sponsor about 70 percent of the Boy Scouts' units nationwide - and these church groups generally support the membership policy.
According to the latest BSA figures, the Mormons' Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints charters more than 37,000 Boy Scout and Cub Scout troops with a youth membership of more than 420,000, the highest figures of any denomination. Roman Catholic parishes charter about 8,500 units with about 283,000 members.
The Scouts have about 2.7 million youth members in all.
Chip Turner, a Southern Baptist who chairs the Scouts' religious relationships committee, said the no-gays policy is unlikely to change as long as it has the support of the churches most active in sponsoring Scout units.
The Southern Baptist Convention, back in 1992, adopted a resolution saying it stood in solidarity with the Boy Scouts in confronting a "sustained attack because of its refusal to allow homosexuals as Scout leaders."
Eric Hawkins, a spokesman at Mormon headquarters in Utah, said his church and the Scouts share of a goal of seeking to teach young men "essential values of character, faith and service, including those outlined in the Scout Oath and Scout Law."
"We have a nearly 100-year relationship with the Boy Scouts of America, and look forward to continuing that relationship far into the future," he said.
Among the mainline Protestant denominations that sponsor large numbers of Scout units - the United Methodist Church, the Episcopal Church and others - the picture is less clear.
Gilbert Hanke, general secretary of the General Commission on United Methodist Men, said the Scouts' membership policy would be discussed soon by a scouting ministry committee and might be an agenda item at a board meeting this fall. The United Methodists sponsor more than 11,000 Scout units with about 370,000 youth members.
The Episcopal Church - which ordains openly gay people as priests - has no churchwide position on the Scouts' policy and leaves it to individual congregations to decide if they want to sponsor a Scout unit. More than 1,100 Episcopal churches do so.
At St. Aidan's Episcopal Church in Alexandria, Va., the associate rector, Rev. Elizabeth Rees, said news of the Boy Scouts' reaffirmation of their policy made her embarrassed by the sign outside her church for the local Scout troop that meets there.
"We have a sign on our property that says, 'We welcome you,' and we have the sign for the Boy Scouts," she said. "The signs seem to be theologically opposed."
Rees says she admires the local troop, but wishes that churches supporting the Scouts could find ways to help change the membership policy.
The liberal United Church of Christ, sponsor of about 1,200 units serving more than 38,000 Scouts, is one of the few large denominations with a formal position condemning the membership policy and urging its elimination.
The effect of the policy, says the 2003 UCC resolution, is to make gays "feel diminished, invisible, and marginalized."
However, the resolution makes clear that individual UCC congregations can decide for themselves whether to cut ties with the Scouts or remain as unit sponsors.
"It's been difficult to engage with the Scouts and have a conversation," said Rev. Michael Schuenemeyer, the UCC's executive for health and wholeness advocacy. "We don't understand why they feel they need to be discriminatory."
Eagle Scout Zach Wahls, a 21-year-old activist raised by lesbian mothers in Iowa, has become a leader of the campaign against the membership policy, though he says he doesn't plan to return his own Eagle Scout medal. He believes the best chance for change lies with local Scout councils, some of which have signaled their commitment to an inclusive approach that would accommodate gays.
Deron Smith, the Scout spokesman, said instances of outright defiance of the policy by local units are "very rare."
"Any time we become aware of inconsistencies, we'll work with the local council and reiterate the policy and make sure it's in compliance," he said. "We have one policy."
I'm Proud The BSA is still remains Morally Straight and upholds its values of honor and ethics in today's sorry society.
Scouts discriminate against anyone that doesn't worship a god.
I'm glad to see that there are still organizations that stand behind their morals.
 @Smashquail And what is the moral lesson to learn here? We're going to exclude people because they are different than us?
Stand your ground BSA. As an Eagle Scout I applaud and am proud that we haven't caved into society and "there" beliefs. Stand tall and proud BSA !!!!!!! If society dosn't like it,,,, they can start there own little pc group, and we can see how many years that lasts.
 @EASTSIDE 1 I for one applaud you for not caving in to basic grammar and spelling!
 @EASTSIDE 1 "Their"
2.7 Million Scouts. A very small number of different persons turning in there Eagle Awards. Not bad numbers.
Majority wins. Â Hardly merits national attention by the media.
At St. Aidan's Episcopal Church in Alexandria, Va., the associate rector, Rev. Elizabeth Rees, said news of the Boy Scouts' reaffirmation of their policy made her embarrassed by the sign outside her church for the local Scout troop that meets there. "We have a sign on our property that says, 'We welcome you,' and we have the sign for the Boy Scouts," she said. "The signs seem to be theologically opposed." Rees says she admires the local troop, but wishes that churches supporting the Scouts could find ways to help change the membership policy.
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As a born & raisede Episcopalian, I whole-heartedly AGREE with Rees. It saddens me that those who support the policy of the BSA cannot see how such an exclusivity hurts their members.
 @LocalLady Have you considered the number of law suits the BSA have already faced due to gay men molesting the boys? Should they throw out a moral code because a group of sexual deviants decides they want to be considered normal and acceptable?
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I stand by the BSA. There is no good reason an organization that stands on it's moral code should have to accept a person who is a sexual deviant.
".... Eric Hawkins, a spokesman at Mormon headquarters in Utah, said his church and the Scouts share of a goal of seeking to teach young men "essential values of character, faith and service, including those outlined in the Scout Oath and Scout Law ...."
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Why do people think that these are mutually exclusive? To me, they are not. I was both a Girl Scout AND a Boy Scout. I see absolutely nothing wrong with being gay AND being a Boy Scout, nor does being gay somehow negate all that the Boy Scouts stand for.
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 @Middle Ground You are a disgusting bigot.
My feelings on this if the gays don't like the Boy Scouts of America and the gay population needs to form their own boys group themselves and have their own little exclusive boys club. Simple as that!
 @wynooheeman Sure, as long as the BSA is forced to forfeit their exclusive use of the word "Scouts". The BSA is free to continue along on its own, no one is going to try to stop them using the law, SCOTUS affirmed their right to live in the Bronze Age. However, they should not receive a single penny of taxpayer support of any kind.
 @kennewickman  @wynooheeman Get over yourself. Using your logic we would deny every organization in the country over some policy or the other that someone doesn't like. By the way, there were homosexuals in the bronze age too. At least so the gay supporters keep telling us.
 @Middle Ground You have no idea what constitutes immorality. If you get your ideas from the Wholly Babble then you will never develop even the most rudimentary understanding.Â
 @kennewickman Have you ever heard of the Sacred Band of Thebes? Your argument is simplistic and condescending. Yes, we all acknowledge that immoral behavior has been around for a very long time.Â
 @Middle Ground Gee whiz there Sparky! I guess you have not ever heard that we decided what should be considered as prohibited bases for discrimination. I know, I know, a complex topic for you given that we will find ourselves confronting multisyllabic words and all that but I would suggest you check out the evolution of our collective statutes that prohibit discrimination. As for the Bronze Age, I detect a certain disbelief that gay people existed back then. Have you ever heard of the Pompeii frescoes?
Romney and McKenna disagrees with the policy of the Boy Scouts. Impressive for them to admit it. But it sounds like the boy scouts are preparing the kids to be the right-wingers of America or employees of Chick-Fil-As.
 @BetaCopy Romney best check his mailbox daily for any official looking envelopes post marked Salt Lake City, he just might find he has been excommunicated by the wizened old men who run the place, err, make that living saints.Â
Why is religious hate so strong? Does the bible teach us to hate people who are different? God created all of us. The boy scouts are the ones discriminating. And some of us are supporting that. Amazing! I'm sure some of you would publicly supporting hating blacks if wasn't so politically incorrect. Shame on you haters. But god sees what you are doing.
@BetaCopy
What hate? Liberals are now famous for throwing out the word "hate" whenever someone disagrees with them. Do you "hate" your children if they do something you don't feel they should be doing? Do you "hate" your dog when she does something you don't feel is right?
Â
The Boy Scouts are sticking with what they believe is a proper moral code rather than cave in to the ebb and flow of political correctness. The haters are the ones that try to destroy anyone who's opinion differs from theirs. If there are haters out there, I'd have to say that they are the gay community and their supporters.
 @Middle Ground Gimme a break! The BSA excludes gays and atheists because they see them as sub-human, just like you do. You act like the exclusion of gays and atheists is some sort of benign act. Let's face it there cowboy, you don't tell perfectly innocent young kids they cannot join your organization because, while you feel their orientation is perfectly valid, it just isn't a good match for the Scouts. Just as you have yourself have used the phrase, the BSA labels them "sexual deviants". It is hate. Only a viscous partisan homophobic hack would attempt to foist such a bucket of miscreant produced slop upon the public as truth. Just admit it, you will feel better, you hate gays because they are "icky"
@Saving Grace Sorry but you are completely wrong, it is the official position of the BSA to deny membership to both young scouts and potential leaders if they are an avowed homosexual or atheist. Do some research rather just shooting your mouth off.
Boy Scouts does not deny ANY child membership. BSA has an issue with Gays wanting to be Boy Scout leaders. the whole issue is manufactured to make the BSA look bad. Leftists have been doing this to every traditional American institution and organization for decades.  Â
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 @SG1 You are right, hating small children is okay as long as it is small enough to quietly push off to a corner.Â
 @SG1 It sounds more like you are the deviant. Hating people you don't know.
 @BetaCopy I flagged you as offensive ten dozen times. Why does it not register when the page is reloaded? Why do my comments get deleted when others use the exact same word towarsd me?
 @BetaCopy Disagreeing with a particular lifestyle does not mean hate. I for one feel that homosexual behavior is repugnant, disgusting and immoral. That doesn't make me hate homosexuals. I'm completely opposed to their agenda to change America to a place where sexual deviants are considered normal. I don't hate them in the least. I just completely disagree with them.
Deron Smith, the Scout spokesman, said instances of outright defiance of the policy by local units are "very rare."
Â
I believe this statement is meant to imply that the BSA membership is overwhelmingly in favor of the membership policies. In fact BSA members, troops or councils which have even publicly criticized these policies are threatened with membership cancellation or even kicked out.Â
 @ghjimAs they should be. Why would anyone want to participate in an organization when they don't agree with the organization's core philosophy?
That's the whole point of the leftists. kind of like how they say they love America, yet want to change most everything American i.e. the constitution, history, churches, boy scouts, Christmas, the military,  the free market, free speech, free thought.
 @Saving Grace You might want to breath into a paper bag for a little bit.
 "To that end, I am interested in removing all evidence that I was ever a Scout."
Â
Good riddance!
Putting my foot in my mouth again with my old fashioned ideals. Flame me! Lol.Â
Clearly, it is wise of the honest undeserving to return the medals.
Â
I wonder, if in the beginning...
There was only Adam and Steve...
Would we be here to comment on this issue?
Would there be anyone around to hear the tree fall in the forest?
Would there be a hole in the ozone?
Â
Pretty simple minded thinking to comprehend that.
Â
Whatever happened to having best friends of the same sex and not going overboard with it?
Â
 @SG1 "Whatever happened to not going overboard with it?"
<br>
it's called histrionic personality disorder. Characterized by a pattern of excessive emotionality and attention-seeking, including an excessive need for approval and inappropriately seductive behavior, usually beginning in early adulthood. These individuals are lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, and flirtatious......People with HPD have a high need for attention, make loud and inappropriate appearances, exaggerate their behaviors and emotions, and crave stimulation.[3] They may exhibit sexually provocative behavior, express strong emotions with an impressionistic style, and can be easily influenced by others. Associated features include egocentrism, self-indulgence, continuous longing for appreciation, and persistent manipulative behavior to achieve their own needs.
 @Saving Grace I am always impressed when I see someone so in touch with herself.Â
 @kennewickman Would that be the biblical "being in touch" meaning?
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 @T H I S How can you intentionally misinterpret my comment. Incest is sick.Â
 @SG1 Please tell us exactly where Adam and Eve's grand children came from?Â
It is a family tree that takes a few generations to arc.
Â
 @T H I S If a brother and sister love each other then what is it to you?
 @whoareyou (rush-still-sux)
You can do what ever you want with your sister.Â
It effects me not. I was simply clarifying the above poster;'s postion that since the subscribe to the Adam and Eve story, they must beleive that incest is ok and sactioned by that God dude since Adam and Eve populated the world.Â
Someone in that family was close with someone in that family.
Â
I'm ok with it. I'm glad you are too.
Â
 @whoareyou Birth defects.
 @T H I S Well, at least the is a biblical foundation to support it...
 @Middle Ground "I'd love to see your reference for that."
Â
"Religious scholars say that God suspended the laws of incest in the early days of man in order to ensure that man spread on the earth. In the words of the commentators of the Douay Rheims Bible: âGod [dispensed] with such marriages in the beginning of the world, as mankind could not otherwise be propagated.â Despite that, these tales are not all simply matters of procreation â particularly item 1. So, here is a list of 6 of the more questionable relationships in the Bible."
http://listverse.com/2008/05/26/top-6-incestuous-relationships-in-the-bible/
Â
"Was the world populated through incest - As to incest, it was not considered a sin and was not prohibited for Adam and early man. If the race was to populate and fulfill the command of Gen. 1:28, there is little doubt that Adamâs sons and daughters had to have married their own sisters and brothers if the race was to populate the earth"
http://bible.org/question/was-world-populated-through-incest-or-did-god-create-others-besides-adam-and-eve
Â
 @Middle Ground No problem, at least we can agree to set aside our differences and both enjoy a hearty laugh at the Bible. Nothing much better than that when you get right down to it!
 @kennewickman Yes, you amuse me. Thanks for that.
 @Middle Ground It appears that you are easily amused.
 @kennewickman  @Middle Ground I find it interesting how you take the Bible so literally when it suits your needs but dismiss it as fantasy when it doesn't.
 @Middle Ground Dude, it is a matter of basic math. Geez, a 3rd grade kid could figure out what apparently escapes you. You see, there was Adam and Eve, they had some kids, Cain, Abel, Seth, Ichabod, Jenna, Jameson, Mitt, et al. Because I have it on good evidence that there were subsequent generations, no matter which way you slice it, it was an overly close family. Â
 @Patriot Respect is earned. Christianity hasn't earned any just yet. BTW, are you of the rather misguided opinion that just because some people hold something sacred the rest of us should only tiptoe around it gingerly?
 @OrcasThunder I'd love to see your reference for that. There's the story of Lot's daughters making love to him when he was drunk and asleep but the Bible isn't supporting the behavior.
 @Patriot and?
 @Patriot Are you denying that there isn't a pattern to incest in scripture?
Liberals howl if a homosexual transvestite or convicted felon is even slightly offended, but they openly bash Christians.