Evidence hints at deadlier plan in Conn. school massacre
NEWTOWN, Conn. (AP) - The gunman in the Connecticut shooting rampage shot his mother four times in the head before going to the school and gunning down 26, authorities said Sunday as details emerged suggesting that Adam Lanza had planned an even more gruesome massacre but was stopped short.
Lanza blasted his way into the building and used a high-powered rifle to kill 20 children and six adults, including the principal who tried to stop him, authorities said.
The unthinkable bloodshed might even have been worse. Gov. Dannel Malloy said Lanza shot himself when he heard police coming. Authorities said they found multiple 30-round magazines and hundreds of bullets at the school, enough ammunition on him to carry out significant additional carnage.
"There was a lot of ammo, a lot of clips," State Police Lt. Paul Vance. "Certainly a lot of lives were potentially saved."
As President Barack Obama prepared a visit and churches opened their doors to comfort a grieving town Sunday, federal agents fanned out to dozens of gun stores and shooting ranges across Connecticut, chasing leads they hoped would cast light on Lanza's life.
Among the questions: Why did his mother, a well-to-do suburban divorcee , keep a cache of high-power weapons in the house? What experience did Lanza have with those guns? And, above all, what set him on a path to go classroom-by-classroom, massacring 6- and 7-year-olds?
Malloy offered no possible motive for the shooting and a law enforcement official has said police have found no letters or diaries left behind that could shed light on it.
Vance on Sunday officially identified Lanza as the shooter.
Lanza shot his 52-year-old mother, Nancy, to death at the home they shared Friday. She was shot four times in the head and found in her bed wearing pajamas, said a state official who was not authorized to disclose details of the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity.
Lanza then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School in her car with at least three of her guns, forced his way in by shooting out a window and opened fire, authorities said. Within minutes, he killed the children, six adults and himself.
Lanza had two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9 mm, and a Bushmaster rifle. Police also found a shotgun in his car.
All the victims at the school were shot with the rifle, at least some of them up close, and all were apparently shot more than once, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said. There were as many as 11 shots on the bodies he examined. Lanza died of a gunshot wound to the head from a 10 mm gun, and the bullet was recovered in a classroom wall, said the same official who described the scene at his mother's house.
All six adults killed at the school were women. Of the 20 children, eight were boys and 12 were girls.
Asked whether the children suffered, Carver said, "If so, not for very long." Asked how many bullets were fired, Carver said, "I'm lucky if I can tell you how many I found."
Parents identified the children through photos to spare them some shock, Carver said.
The terrible details about the last moments of young innocents emerged as authorities released their names and ages - the youngest 6 and 7, the oldest 56. They included Ana Marquez-Greene, a little girl who had just moved to Newtown from Canada; Victoria Soto, a 27-year-old teacher who apparently died while trying to hide her pupils; and principal Dawn Hochsprung, who authorities said lunged at the gunman in an attempt to overtake him.
The tragedy has plunged Newtown into mourning and added the picturesque New England community of 27,000 people to the grim map of towns where mass shootings in recent years have periodically reignited the national debate over gun control but led to little change.
School officials were trying to determine what to do about sending the survivors back to class, Newtown police Lt. George Sinko said at a news conference Sunday.
Sinko said he "would find it very difficult" for students to return to the school. But, he added, "we want to keep these kids together. They need to support each other," he said.
Plans were being made for some students to attend classes in nearby Monroe, said Jim Agostine, superintendent of schools there.
Residents and faith leaders reflected Sunday on the mass shooting and what meaning, if any, to find in it. Obama planned to attend an interfaith vigil - the fourth time he will have traveled to a city after a mass shooting.
At St. Rose of Lima Roman Catholic church, Jennifer Waters, who at 6 is the same age as many of the victims and attends a different school, came to Mass on Sunday in Newtown with a lot of questions.
"The little children - are they with the angels?" she asked her mother while fiddling with a small plastic figurine on a pew near the back of the church. "Are they going to live with the angels?"
Her mother, Joan, 45, assured her they were, then put a finger to her daughter's lips, urging her to be quiet.
An overflow crowd of more than 800 people attended the 9 a.m. service at the church, where eight children will be buried later this week. The gunman, Adam Lanza, and his mother also attended church here. Spokesman Brian Wallace said the diocese has yet to be asked to provide funerals for either.
Boxes of tissues were placed strategically in each pew and on each window sill. The altar was adorned with bouquets, one shaped as a broken heart, with a zigzag of red carnations cutting through the white ones.
In his homily, the Rev. Jerald Doyle, the diocesan administrator, tried to answer the question of how parishioners could find joy in the holiday season with so much sorrow surrounding them.
"You won't remember what I say, and it will become unimportant," he said. "But you will really hear deep down that word that will finally and ultimately bring peace and joy. That is the word by which we live. That is the word by which we hope. That is the word by which we love."
After the Mass, Joan and Jennifer stopped by a memorial outside the church filled with votive candles and a pile of bouquets and stuffed animals underneath, to pray the Lord's Prayer.
Jennifer asked whether she could take one.
"No, those are for the little children," her mother replied.
"Who died?" her daughter asked.
"Yes," said her mother, wiping away a tear.
Amid the confusion and sorrow, stories of heroism emerged, including an account of Hochsprung, 47, and the school psychologist, Mary Sherlach, 56, rushing toward Lanza in an attempt to stop him. Both died.
There was also 27-year-old teacher Victoria Soto, whose name has been invoked as a portrait of selflessness. Investigators told relatives she was killed while shielding her first-graders from danger. She reportedly hid some students in a bathroom or closet, ensuring they were safe, a cousin, Jim Wiltsie, told ABC News.
"She put those children first. That's all she ever talked about," a friend, Andrea Crowell, told The Associated Press. "She wanted to do her best for them, to teach them something new every day."
There was also 6-year-old Emilie Parker, whose grieving father, Robbie, talked to reporters not long after police released the names of the victims but expressed no animosity, offering sympathy for Lanza's family.
"I can't imagine how hard this experience must be for you," he said.
The gunman's father, Peter Lanza, issued a statement relating his own family's anguish in the aftermath.
"Our family is grieving along with all those who have been affected by this enormous tragedy. No words can truly express how heartbroken we are," he said. "We are in a state of disbelief and trying to find whatever answers we can. We too are asking why. ... Like so many of you, we are saddened, but struggling to make sense of what has transpired."
The rifle used was a Bushmaster .223-caliber, according to an official with knowledge of the investigation who was not authorized to speak about it and talked on condition of anonymity. The gun is commonly seen at competitions and was the type used in the 2002 sniper killings in the Washington, D.C., area. Also found in the school were two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9 mm.
A law enforcement official said Saturday that authorities were investigating fresh leads that could reveal more about the lead-up to the shooting. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.
Ginger Colbrun, spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said earlier there was no evidence Lanza was involved in gun clubs or had trained for the shooting. When reached later in the day and asked whether that was still true, she said, "We're following any and all leads related to this individual and firearms."
Law enforcement officials have said they have found no note or manifesto from Lanza of the sort they have come to expect after murderous rampages such as the Virginia Tech bloodbath in 2007 that left 33 people dead.
Education officials said they had found no link between Lanza's mother and the school, contrary to news reports that said she was a teacher there. Investigators said they believe Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook many years ago, but they had no explanation for why he went there Friday.
Authorities said Adam Lanza had no criminal history, and it was not clear whether he had a job. Lanza was believed to have suffered from a personality disorder, said a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Another law enforcement official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said Lanza also had been diagnosed with Asperger's, a mild form of autism often characterized by social awkwardness.
People with the disorder are often highly intelligent. While they can become frustrated more easily, there is no evidence of a link between Asperger's and violent behavior, experts say.
The law enforcement officials insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the unfolding investigation.
Richard Novia, the school district's head of security until 2008, who also served as adviser for the high school technology club, of which Lanza was a member, said he clearly "had some disabilities."
"If that boy would've burned himself, he would not have known it or felt it physically," Novia said in a phone interview. "It was my job to pay close attention to that."
___
Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers Jim Fitzgerald, Bridget Murphy, Pat Eaton-Robb, David Klepper and Michael Melia in Newtown; Denise Lavoie in Danbury, Conn.; Adam Geller in Southbury, Conn.; Stephen Singer and Dave Collins in Hartford, Conn.; Pete Yost in Washington and the AP News Research Center in New York.
Lanza blasted his way into the building and used a high-powered rifle to kill 20 children and six adults, including the principal who tried to stop him, authorities said.
The unthinkable bloodshed might even have been worse. Gov. Dannel Malloy said Lanza shot himself when he heard police coming. Authorities said they found multiple 30-round magazines and hundreds of bullets at the school, enough ammunition on him to carry out significant additional carnage.
"There was a lot of ammo, a lot of clips," State Police Lt. Paul Vance. "Certainly a lot of lives were potentially saved."
As President Barack Obama prepared a visit and churches opened their doors to comfort a grieving town Sunday, federal agents fanned out to dozens of gun stores and shooting ranges across Connecticut, chasing leads they hoped would cast light on Lanza's life.
Among the questions: Why did his mother, a well-to-do suburban divorcee , keep a cache of high-power weapons in the house? What experience did Lanza have with those guns? And, above all, what set him on a path to go classroom-by-classroom, massacring 6- and 7-year-olds?
Malloy offered no possible motive for the shooting and a law enforcement official has said police have found no letters or diaries left behind that could shed light on it.
Vance on Sunday officially identified Lanza as the shooter.
Lanza shot his 52-year-old mother, Nancy, to death at the home they shared Friday. She was shot four times in the head and found in her bed wearing pajamas, said a state official who was not authorized to disclose details of the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity.
Lanza then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School in her car with at least three of her guns, forced his way in by shooting out a window and opened fire, authorities said. Within minutes, he killed the children, six adults and himself.
Lanza had two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9 mm, and a Bushmaster rifle. Police also found a shotgun in his car.
All the victims at the school were shot with the rifle, at least some of them up close, and all were apparently shot more than once, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said. There were as many as 11 shots on the bodies he examined. Lanza died of a gunshot wound to the head from a 10 mm gun, and the bullet was recovered in a classroom wall, said the same official who described the scene at his mother's house.
All six adults killed at the school were women. Of the 20 children, eight were boys and 12 were girls.
Asked whether the children suffered, Carver said, "If so, not for very long." Asked how many bullets were fired, Carver said, "I'm lucky if I can tell you how many I found."
Parents identified the children through photos to spare them some shock, Carver said.
The terrible details about the last moments of young innocents emerged as authorities released their names and ages - the youngest 6 and 7, the oldest 56. They included Ana Marquez-Greene, a little girl who had just moved to Newtown from Canada; Victoria Soto, a 27-year-old teacher who apparently died while trying to hide her pupils; and principal Dawn Hochsprung, who authorities said lunged at the gunman in an attempt to overtake him.
The tragedy has plunged Newtown into mourning and added the picturesque New England community of 27,000 people to the grim map of towns where mass shootings in recent years have periodically reignited the national debate over gun control but led to little change.
School officials were trying to determine what to do about sending the survivors back to class, Newtown police Lt. George Sinko said at a news conference Sunday.
Sinko said he "would find it very difficult" for students to return to the school. But, he added, "we want to keep these kids together. They need to support each other," he said.
Plans were being made for some students to attend classes in nearby Monroe, said Jim Agostine, superintendent of schools there.
Residents and faith leaders reflected Sunday on the mass shooting and what meaning, if any, to find in it. Obama planned to attend an interfaith vigil - the fourth time he will have traveled to a city after a mass shooting.
At St. Rose of Lima Roman Catholic church, Jennifer Waters, who at 6 is the same age as many of the victims and attends a different school, came to Mass on Sunday in Newtown with a lot of questions.
"The little children - are they with the angels?" she asked her mother while fiddling with a small plastic figurine on a pew near the back of the church. "Are they going to live with the angels?"
Her mother, Joan, 45, assured her they were, then put a finger to her daughter's lips, urging her to be quiet.
An overflow crowd of more than 800 people attended the 9 a.m. service at the church, where eight children will be buried later this week. The gunman, Adam Lanza, and his mother also attended church here. Spokesman Brian Wallace said the diocese has yet to be asked to provide funerals for either.
Boxes of tissues were placed strategically in each pew and on each window sill. The altar was adorned with bouquets, one shaped as a broken heart, with a zigzag of red carnations cutting through the white ones.
In his homily, the Rev. Jerald Doyle, the diocesan administrator, tried to answer the question of how parishioners could find joy in the holiday season with so much sorrow surrounding them.
"You won't remember what I say, and it will become unimportant," he said. "But you will really hear deep down that word that will finally and ultimately bring peace and joy. That is the word by which we live. That is the word by which we hope. That is the word by which we love."
After the Mass, Joan and Jennifer stopped by a memorial outside the church filled with votive candles and a pile of bouquets and stuffed animals underneath, to pray the Lord's Prayer.
Jennifer asked whether she could take one.
"No, those are for the little children," her mother replied.
"Who died?" her daughter asked.
"Yes," said her mother, wiping away a tear.
Amid the confusion and sorrow, stories of heroism emerged, including an account of Hochsprung, 47, and the school psychologist, Mary Sherlach, 56, rushing toward Lanza in an attempt to stop him. Both died.
There was also 27-year-old teacher Victoria Soto, whose name has been invoked as a portrait of selflessness. Investigators told relatives she was killed while shielding her first-graders from danger. She reportedly hid some students in a bathroom or closet, ensuring they were safe, a cousin, Jim Wiltsie, told ABC News.
"She put those children first. That's all she ever talked about," a friend, Andrea Crowell, told The Associated Press. "She wanted to do her best for them, to teach them something new every day."
There was also 6-year-old Emilie Parker, whose grieving father, Robbie, talked to reporters not long after police released the names of the victims but expressed no animosity, offering sympathy for Lanza's family.
"I can't imagine how hard this experience must be for you," he said.
The gunman's father, Peter Lanza, issued a statement relating his own family's anguish in the aftermath.
"Our family is grieving along with all those who have been affected by this enormous tragedy. No words can truly express how heartbroken we are," he said. "We are in a state of disbelief and trying to find whatever answers we can. We too are asking why. ... Like so many of you, we are saddened, but struggling to make sense of what has transpired."
The rifle used was a Bushmaster .223-caliber, according to an official with knowledge of the investigation who was not authorized to speak about it and talked on condition of anonymity. The gun is commonly seen at competitions and was the type used in the 2002 sniper killings in the Washington, D.C., area. Also found in the school were two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9 mm.
A law enforcement official said Saturday that authorities were investigating fresh leads that could reveal more about the lead-up to the shooting. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.
Ginger Colbrun, spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said earlier there was no evidence Lanza was involved in gun clubs or had trained for the shooting. When reached later in the day and asked whether that was still true, she said, "We're following any and all leads related to this individual and firearms."
Law enforcement officials have said they have found no note or manifesto from Lanza of the sort they have come to expect after murderous rampages such as the Virginia Tech bloodbath in 2007 that left 33 people dead.
Education officials said they had found no link between Lanza's mother and the school, contrary to news reports that said she was a teacher there. Investigators said they believe Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook many years ago, but they had no explanation for why he went there Friday.
Authorities said Adam Lanza had no criminal history, and it was not clear whether he had a job. Lanza was believed to have suffered from a personality disorder, said a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Another law enforcement official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said Lanza also had been diagnosed with Asperger's, a mild form of autism often characterized by social awkwardness.
People with the disorder are often highly intelligent. While they can become frustrated more easily, there is no evidence of a link between Asperger's and violent behavior, experts say.
The law enforcement officials insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the unfolding investigation.
Richard Novia, the school district's head of security until 2008, who also served as adviser for the high school technology club, of which Lanza was a member, said he clearly "had some disabilities."
"If that boy would've burned himself, he would not have known it or felt it physically," Novia said in a phone interview. "It was my job to pay close attention to that."
___
Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers Jim Fitzgerald, Bridget Murphy, Pat Eaton-Robb, David Klepper and Michael Melia in Newtown; Denise Lavoie in Danbury, Conn.; Adam Geller in Southbury, Conn.; Stephen Singer and Dave Collins in Hartford, Conn.; Pete Yost in Washington and the AP News Research Center in New York.
From the aboriginal community of canada, our sincere sympathy to all the families affected by the actions of one. We are so sorry and will be in our thoughts throughout your grieving process. may the creator give you strength, courage and hope in this time of sorrow.
Automatic rifles need to be banned. Â Hunters and home protectors can get by fine with lever or bolt action rifles, or handguns.
People, if you must own a gun and you have a family member with mental issues, please, please lock it up responsibly!
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This article sheds a lot of light on how these incidents come about http://www.buzzfeed.com/lizalong/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-8ga2Â We have got to start addressing the reality of mental illness again. Parents are forced to just sit by and wait for these children to do something terrible, there is nothing they can do and nowhere for the children to go. In the past, we recognized that mental illness is a reality and we had asylums.
isn't there one thing we can do and limit these gun clips from offering up 30 or so rounds of rapid fire mayhem to maybe 5Â to 10 or so at a time..?
I don't know why people bother to look for a motive when a mental patient is the perp. No..it was not his mom...it was not video games...it was not guns...it was not aspergers...or meds....it was because he was a freakin' mental patient...just like the rest of them..
@lin I agree with your viewpoint. Lanza had a personality disorder. The "experts" contend there is no link between Asberger's and violent behavior. I lived next door to a 12 yr old boy with Asbergers, and I can tell you he was very unpredictable, occasionally violent, and kept me on guard. Now the world has seen what Asberger patients are capable of. Time to edit your textbooks, prof'essors. Stop being so naive. Nancy Lanza should have ensured her mentally disabled son did not have access to her firearms. She is to blame, ultimately.
@lin We have what is called cause and effect here. The mother of the shooter had concerns about her son's mental health as stated in correspondence found in her home. With this knowledge, she still had guns accessable in the home, not only that, evidence has recently surfaced that she took her son to the gun range, there is nothing wrong with going to the gun range with someone that has all of their faculties in place, I do it myself. But knowing that her son was having some mental health issues would be like letting the fox guard the hen house. I think that the mother was irresponsible for not ensuring those guns were not accessable to her son, if he killed her and took the key, then maybe she should have had a combination on the safe. But the fact of the matter was that the son effectively killed a whole classroom of childern and and adults in maybe under 5 minutes with a semiautomatic Bushmaster AR-15 .223 caliber with 30 round magazines, what do you need with one of those, hunting? Really, that's why you have bolt action deer rifles and not an assualt rifle with a high capacity magazine.
This is so sad and so sick. Just totally unthinkable, pure evil and "hell on Earth." Life is NOT supposed to be this way. I hope this bastard rots in hell forever. I also hope god, or goodness or whatever you want to call it, purifies America and these outrageous, crazy attacks stop. I am absolutely in favor of outlawing guns and major gun control so these horrifying events don't keep happening. Obama needs to outlaw guns immediately, find other ways to deal with problems people... duh, "how about talking it out!" Jesus.
 @keepthepeace28 We can never make society restricted enough that the mentally ill can live among us safely, and it is unfair to expect everyone to live by the kind of rules that are required for the mentally ill. It is time to start putting the mentally ill where they cannot do harm or be harmed.
@keepthepeace28 sorry outlawing guns is not the answer. he could have made a bomb like tim McVay did then what? out law diesel? and ryder trucks and fertilizer? evil people will do evil things. And the only way to defeat evil is to kill it. to stand up and fight it. the police can not be there all the time every were or this would really be a police state. Start by arming and training the teacher's. If people had a thought that hmm the teachers are armed I am not going to try this. These nutters want the helpless and victims. they are cowards. Unable to be a man they have no ethos not moral compass. What needs to be done is for us as a nation turn to the god you believe in if you do and pray and find the peace the world can not give.
@wynooheeman Comparing semiautomatic rifles to diesel, fertilizer, and Ryder trucks are what's called a false analogy. Ryder trucks are designed to do one thing, fertilizer is designed to do one thing, and diesel was specifically designed to do one thing, yes they can have dual uses for nefarious reason, but they are manufactured for only one thing. Now guns on the other hand are designed for one thing, killing one person at a time per trigger squeeze with moderate accuracy, and semiautomatic rifle are designed to kill one person at a time per trigger squeeze with very high accuracy and reduced locking time between trigger squeezes, with magazine capacities of 20, 30, 60, and 100, and 250 round drums. Not to mention, that these semiautomatic rifles can still be easily modified to go fully automatic by adding an auto-sear or a Lightning Link, which both are stamped metal parts and you can get the dimensions off the internet to drop it right in to an AR-15. Who needs a semiautomatic rifle for hunting? I say reinstitute the assault weapons ban and require a person or entity to purchase an A.T.F. Tax stamp if they want to own one.
@cuzsis And last but not least, did I mention the weakest exuse for the use of suppressors (most commonly used term are silencers) on Semi-automatic rifles since it's now legal in the state of Washington with a $200.00 ATF Tax stamp is not to disturb other hunters or animals. Yeah right, so now the gun nuts are all of a sudden nature conservationists now. Give me a break.
@cuzsis As you stated in using something to kill someone, I would say the reverse, a semi-automatic that was designed to kill people is used as an excuse to back up someones claim for hunting deer. Wouldn't you think using an AK-47 or AR-15 to hunt deer would take the sport out of it? Especially since Fish and Wildlife require you to have a wooden dowel in the magazine tube of your pump action shotgun so you won't have an unfair hunting advantage. Quick follow up shot, really.....? I guess that's why when people buy AR-15's they trick it out with EoTech holographic optics, picatinny rail system, angular grips, flashlights, backup ironsights, milspec Magpul stocks, 60, 100, and 250 round drums. All good for hunting I would say. You're full of BS.
@cuzsis Ok, no need for personal attacks, it's obvious that people like you can not hold an adult conversation. You have no idea who I am to make that claim, grow up.
 @backinmyday  @wynooheeman A lot of people like having a quick follow up shot when hunting. Semi-autos definitely have a place there.  Just because you *can* use something to kill someone doesn't mean you have to. The fact that you view a gun as "only good for killing humans" and no other worthwhile actions speaks more about you and your state of mind than it does about the gun.
what does an atheist say to a child when the child asks that question, "Are they going to live with the angels?"
 @DylanJÂ
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"Nope; they're dead."
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Why not just give 'em the truth?
@Whobeke @DylanJ why not tell the the truth and say the body may be dead but the spirit still lives.
@backinmyday well first show me your evidence that what I said is not true. till then respect my opinion.
@wynooheeman How do you know this is true?
 @DylanJ "They are going where they won't have any more problems, or suffering."
 @DylanJ Regardless of religion, what does any parent say when their kid asks them that? I still haven't really talked about it with mine...
This comment has been deleted
All choices involve trade-offs. ALWAYS. The benefit of common gun ownership is being able to defend yourself against violent criminals. The cost is the occasional tragedy like this one. The benefit of disallowing gun ownership is fewer such mass shootings, *maybe*, but a much higher "daily" crime problem. Places with draconian gun laws *still* have murder, mass murder, and other violent crimes. We do have a violent culture (with many causes, historical, technological, economic, racial, political, and social), and those root causes would not go away even IF would could effectively ban guns (which we can't).
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So the the goal should be to identify the path withe the greatest overall harm reduction and an affordable price (in money, time, freedom, and social side-effects), as the problems presented by people who are just not wired right can never really be "solved," only dealt with. Better mental health policy is a good thing, though the details may get awkward. Turning our schools into things even MORE like prisons isn't the way to go, I don't think, nor is banning guns, or institutionalizing everyone with emotional issues, or becoming a total surveillance society.
 @RN1 Glad to see the debate is moving away from gun control and back to the real issue in so many of these cases, mental health. Its a mess in this country. Most just get prescription drugs to try and mask the symptoms but they don't address the disease itself. Hope this starts a dialogue in congress to try and get a system setup than can help some of these people before its too late.
 @Blindman One of the problems, even when you put the details of any specific case aside, is addressing the basic philosophical question of "what should you do with a person who hasn't hurt anyone yet, but really and truly isn't wired correctly, and they may live a productive (if sometimes rather odd) life, but then again they may also be one triggering event from being a mass murderer?" Even if we DID have systems to identify these sorts of people, once known, what do you do with them that doesn't have as many (or more) negative costs and potential downsides as benefits?
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I can spit-ball all sorts of *possible* ideas, but not a one of them are very appealing.
What we need is bullet control, $5000.00 dollars a bullet. If you tick me off, I'll get another job and can afford to buy 30 rounds, you are in trouble, like Chris Rock said.
@backinmyday no problem there i make my own
 @wynooheeman Well thats besides the point, they would want to do the same on casings and primers
@KittySmasher sorry they still can't do a thing about it. I use flint and steel! and I melt my own lead in to balls and i make my own patches and if things really go bad I can make my own powder too.
 @backinmyday Right. That way, law-abiding folks can't afford to practice, and criminal will still be able to steal their ammo (they have low volume requirement) from the cops.
 @backinmyday That's a ridiculous thought how would rural families that rely on hunting to feed their families afford to put meat on the table?
"Nothing inspires forgiveness quite like revenge."
Scott Adams
The wages of sin are death, as Mrs. Lanza learned. It was a sin to provide her insane, violent son access to those firearms. She was an accessory to 26 murders. Had she not died on the day of the rampage, I'd have supported charging her with those crimes, and hopefully facing a penalty of life without parole. But, she was already punished for her crimes.
@Whobeke OH so you know fist hand that he had access to them? Pray tell us how? what if he broke open the lock to a gun safe? or found out the combo to it and gained it that way? and shot her in her sleep? and in a post closer to the top you kinda sound like a atheist. so why do you believe in Sin. because sin is disobedience to God nothing else
@Whobeke So what you are saying is that; even if you have guns in your house, and someone takes them, but before you notice them missing and have not reported them to the police, that person kills 100 people with your gun(s), then kills himself/herself, you would be willing to be charged with 100 counts of murder just because they are your guns? you are brave. Remember one thing, your logic includes everything you own, your car, a hammer, and so on.....enjoy.
@Whobeke So does that mean if someone took their mother's butcher knife & killed someone with it, that the mother should be charged as an accesorry because she supplied the knife?
 @choliscott  @Whobeke Only if it was an "assault knife". This would be a knife that everyone would say "why would anyone own that? You don't need that for normal cooking!"
 @choliscott  @WhobekeÂ
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Well let's see - did the mother take her psycho son to a "butcher knife range" so that he could learn to kill more effectively?
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/atf-gunman-mother-visited-shooting-range-17993575
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"ATF: Gunman, Mother Visited Shooting Range"
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We usually also distinguish things by their potential lethality. For example, let's say you have a permit to store explosives on your property. Let's say that you also share that property with a psycho son. You have two choices here - "harden" the explosives storage areas so that your psycho son can't get in there even if he kills you (perhaps with deadman switches/alarms), or divest your explosives altogether.
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There is no "third way" - you don't just get to stick the explosives in your shed and hope for the best. That makes you a potential accomplice to mass-murder.
 @NewsJunky  @Whobeke  @choliscott I heard that there are quotes out there of him yelling very violent and angry things at his mother. If these are true (I don't have the articles myself as my interaction in these discussions is marginal) then that is more than enough to presume negligence.
 @Whobeke  @choliscott Again, your assuming that she knew that she had a "psycho son." His mental health diagnosis, as has been widely reported, was Aspergers syndrome, which has not been linked to violence. It is in the Autism spectrum of disorders and someone with that diagnosis would not be considered dangerous. It is most often characterized by social awkwardness. I find your comments to be extremely disrespectful to someone whose life was taken too early. Unless you have knowledge of the mother knowing that her son was planning to carry out such a terrible act, your comments are completely irrelevant,  cold and juvenile.
 @Whobeke What makes you think that his mother provided access to the guns? I think you're assuming too much at this early point in the investigation. He was obviously a disturbed individual, we know that know, but assuming that his mother had any indication that he would ever be capable of such violence is ridiculous. She lost her life and deserves just as much respect as the other victims.Â
 @NewsJunky  @Whobeke She provided access to the guns by buying them and keeping them in her home. I don't understand what purpose any law-abiding citizen has for having an AR-15 assault rifle in their home. Gun enthusiasts, please enlighten me as to why it is a good thing that the argument is moving away from sensible gun laws?Â
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 @KittySmasher  @KH It would seem that by simple logic, a firearm capable of accepting 30 round magazines and discharging a round at the rate of every finger squeeze would be far more effective in the act of carrying out a murderous assault on a school (or any other place) than a bolt action rifle that must be reloaded with each discharge. We can all avoid calling them an "assault rifle" because it's technically improper terminology, but there's no question if someone were going to select between two rifles to storm a school or other facility with the intent of firing as many rounds as possible, the AR15 would be a far more effective choice. We can debate whether firearms (any class for that matter) should be banned - or not - in our nation, but let's not try to pretend that some weapons and their accoutrements aren't designed to be a LOT more effective at discharging a very significantly higher number of rounds per minute.Â
 @KH Well here is my take on AR15's. First off stop calling them assault rifle they are not a fully automatic weapon therefore they are not an assault rifle. They might look like the military issue M4 but that is purley cosmetic. These guns are very light and accurate with little to no recoil. This make them perfect varmint and competition guns. Also the lego like ability to add and change parts of the gun make them a perfect fit for most people weather you're a 6' tall man or a 5' tall woman. You can adjust it to fit you perfectly. Also you can change the usage of the gun by swapping out the upper receiver for one of a different configuration. Competing in a 3 gun match in the morning using a 18 inch .223 upper and Deer hunting in the afternoon with a 6.5 Grendel upper, and the Elk hunting in the evning with a .458 SOCOM upper. It's the endless adjustability of it that makes it the most popular rifle in america right now. No other gun can be used for so many different purposes or is as customizable as an AR15.
 @NewsJunky  @WhobekeÂ
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His mother purchased the firearms and stored them in her house, which she shared with her psycho son. Those are facts. She chose poorly, and got a lot of people killed as a result.
 @NewsJunky  @Whobeke Don't bother, he's just trolling
Point to ponder. This is leading to remove our right to own and bear guns. Guns are merely one of many choices of weapons. The same day this shooting took place, a guy in China killed 16 school kids with a knife. There are many "weapons" of choice - including one's hands. There is absolutely no way to legislate everything. We must not allow our rights to own and bear arms be taken away.
 @raven Like perhaps most right-wingers and gun nuts, you do not even bother to check your facts and get them straight before spouting off: just whatever fits our fantasies you accept with your whole heart. Your treasure is convenient lies and death.
 @JLS1950 Your comment implies that you have "checked the facts." If so, why not share them with us before "spouting off?" Sounds like you may be the victim of your own "fantasies."
 @NewsJunky Thank You
 @FireProof   You are absolutely right.Â
 @JLS1950  @NewsJunky Wow what's with the anger & disrespect. There has been enough hatred in the last few days. Try a little grace.
 @NewsJunky I have been posting links to references quite frequently. Do I have to send someone over to help you understand the keyboard on your computer? I didn't think so...
 @ravenÂ
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"The same day this shooting took place, a guy in China killed 16 school kids with a knife."
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No; I think he WOUNDED 22 kids, but none of them actually died.
@Whobeke @raven so can I puncture your lungs a few times not kill you just wound you with sucking chest wound. i am sure the knife would be blamed right not me it was the knife that did it.