Fact Check: Slips in vice president's debate
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WASHINGTON (AP) - Anyone who paid attention to a hearing in Congress this week knew that the administration had been implored to beef up security at the U.S. Consulate in Libya before the deadly terrorist attack there. But in the vice presidential debate Thursday night, Joe Biden seemed unaware.
"We weren't told they wanted more security there," the vice president asserted flatly. During a night in which Biden and Republican rival Paul Ryan both drifted from the facts on a range of domestic and foreign issues, that was a standout.
A look at some of their claims:
BIDEN: "Well, we weren't told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security again. And by the way, at the time we were told exactly - we said exactly what the intelligence community told us that they knew. That was the assessment. And as the intelligence community changed their view, we made it clear they changed their view."
RYAN: "There were requests for more security."
THE FACTS: Ryan is right, judging by testimony from Obama administration officials at the hearing a day earlier.
Charlene R. Lamb, a deputy assistant secretary for diplomatic security, told lawmakers she refused requests for more security in Benghazi, saying the department wanted to train Libyans to protect the consulate. "Yes, sir, I said personally I would not support it," she said.
Eric Nordstrom, who was the top security official in Libya earlier this year, testified he was criticized for seeking more security. He said conversations he had with people in Washington led him to believe that it was "abundantly clear we were not going to get resources until the aftermath of an incident. How thin does the ice have to get before someone falls through?"
He said his exasperation reached a point where he told a colleague that "for me the Taliban is on the inside of the building."
---
RYAN: "Look at just the $90 billion in stimulus the vice president was in charge of overseeing - this $90 billion in green pork to campaign contributors and special interest groups."
THE FACTS: Dismissing an entire package of energy stimulus grants and loans as "green pork" ignores the help that was given to people to make their homes more energy efficient, grants to public entities constructing high speed rail lines and tax credits to manufacturers to install equipment fostering cleaner energy.
To be sure, there were notable failed investments, such as $528 million to the politically connected and now-bankrupt solar power company Solyndra. But Ryan's claim made it sound like every penny went down the drain.
More broadly, economists are nearly universal in saying Obama's $800 billion-plus stimulus passed in early 2009 helped create both public-sector and private-sector jobs, even if they fell short of what sponsors had hoped. Douglas Elmendorf, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, estimated the stimulus saved or created more than 3 million jobs.
---
BIDEN: "We went out and rescued General Motors."
THE FACTS: Actually, the auto bailout of General Motors and Chrysler began under President George W. Bush. The Obama administration continued and expanded it.
--- RYAN: "And then they put this new Obamacare board in charge of cutting Medicare each and every year in ways that will lead to denied care for current seniors. This board, by the way, it's 15 people, the president's supposed to appoint them next year. And not one of them even has to have medical training."
THE FACTS: Ryan is referring to the Independent Payment Advisory Board, created under President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law. It has the power to force cuts in Medicare payments to service providers if costs rise above certain levels and Congress fails to act. But it doesn't look like the board will be cutting Medicare "each and every year," as Ryan asserts. Medicare costs are currently rising modestly and the government's own experts project the board's intervention will not be needed until 2018 and 2019 at the earliest - after Obama leaves office if re-elected to a second term.
---
BIDEN, when asked who would pay more taxes in Obama's second term: "People making a million dollars or more."
THE FACTS: Obama's proposed tax increase reaches farther down the income ladder than millionaires. He wants to roll back Bush-era tax cuts for individuals making over $200,000 and couples making more than $250,000.
---
RYAN: "We cannot allow Iran to gain a nuclear weapons capability. Now, let's take a look at where we've gone - come from. When Barack Obama was elected, they had enough fissile material - nuclear material - to make one bomb. Now they have enough for five. They're racing toward a nuclear weapon. They're four years closer toward a nuclear weapons capability."
THE FACTS: Ryan's claim is misleading. Iran isn't believed to have produced any of the highly enriched uranium needed to produce even one nuclear weapon, let alone five. That point isn't even disputed by Israel, whose Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu implored the world at the United Nations last month to create a "red line" at enrichment above 20 percent. Iran would have to enrich uranium at much higher levels to produce a weapon. There is intelligence suggesting that Iran has worked on weapon designs, but not that it has developed a delivery system for any potential nuclear warhead.
---
BIDEN: "What we did is, we saved $716 billion and put it back, applied it to Medicare."
THE FACTS: Contrary to Biden's assertion, not all the money cut from Medicare is going back into the program in some other way. The administration is cutting $716 billion over 10 years in Medicare payments to providers and using some of the money to improve benefits under the program. But most of the money is being used to expand health care coverage outside of Medicare.
---
RYAN: "What troubles me more is how this administration has handled all of these issues. Look at what they're doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They're infringing upon our first freedom, the freedom of religion, by infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals."
THE FACTS: The requirement under the health care law that most employers cover birth control free of charge to female employees does not apply to churches, houses of worship, or other institutions directly involved in propagating a religious faith. It does apply to church-affiliated institutions such as hospitals and charities that serve the general public.
---
BIDEN: "Romney said 'No, let Detroit go bankrupt.'"
THE FACTS: GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney has gotten endless grief through the campaign for the headline put on his November 2008 opinion essay that he wrote for The New York Times. But his point was never that he wanted the auto industry to go down the tubes.
Romney opposed using government money to bail out Chrysler and General Motors, instead favoring privately financed bankruptcy restructuring. His prescription seemed improbable. Automakers were hemorrhaging cash and the banking system was in crisis, so private money wasn't available. Without the government money, it's likely both companies would have gone out of business. Romney did propose government-guaranteed private loans for both companies after bankruptcy.
---
RYAN: "We should have spoken out right away when the green revolution was up and starting, when the mullahs in Iran were attacking their people. We should not have called Bashar Assad a reformer when he was turning his Russian-provided guns on his own people.
THE FACTS: Neither President Barack Obama nor anyone else in his administration ever considered the Syrian leader a "reformer." The oft-repeated charge stems from an interview Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton gave in March 2011 noting that "many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he's a reformer." She did not endorse that view. The comment was widely perceived to be a knock at senators such as John Kerry of Massachusetts who maintained cordial relations with Assad in the months leading up to his crackdown on protesters.
---
RYAN: "This one tax would actually tax about 53 percent of small-business income."
BIDEN: "Ninety-seven percent of the small businesses in America pay less - make less than $250,000."
THE FACTS: Both are correct, but incomplete, when sizing up the effect on small business of raising taxes for individuals making more than $200,000 and married couples making more than $250,000, as Obama wants to do. Republicans say that would hit small-business owners who report business income on their individual income tax; Democrats say the overwhelming majority of small businesses would not be affected.
According to a 2010 report by the Joint Committee on Taxation, the official scorekeeper for Congress, about 3 percent of people who report business income would face a tax increase under Obama's plan. That support's Biden's point.
The same report says those business owners account for about half of all business income. That supports Ryan.
---
RYAN: Notes that there have been four rounds of U.N. sanctions on Iran to deter its nuclear program, three during the Bush administration and one under Obama. "And the only reason we got it is because Russia watered it down and prevented the sanctions from hitting the central bank. Mitt Romney proposed these sanctions in 2007. In Congress, I've been fighting for these sanctions since 2009. The administration was blocking us every step of the way." He also noted the administration has granted 20 waivers to the sanctions.
THE FACTS: The argument that the administration was watering down or delaying sanctions is misleading. For sanctions to work, they need maximum global agreement and cooperation. Russia watered down U.N. sanctions not only under Obama, but also under Bush. And it's highly unlikely that a Romney administration, particularly led by a candidate who says Russia is the biggest geostrategic threat to the U.S., would be able to get Russia completely on board with what the U.S. wants to - either in Iran or Syria.
The more absolute U.S. sanctions that Ryan and others have pushed in Congress would have punished U.S. allies, including most countries in Europe as well as Japan and South Korea, along with good friends like India and Singapore - without the exemptions that were put in place.
The administration has indeed granted 20 waivers, to countries that made significant reductions in Iranian oil imports. And the sanctions are pinching; Iran has been convulsed over the past week with protests over the collapse of its currency, which most people say is a direct result of the sanctions that the U.S. and others have imposed.
"We weren't told they wanted more security there," the vice president asserted flatly. During a night in which Biden and Republican rival Paul Ryan both drifted from the facts on a range of domestic and foreign issues, that was a standout.
A look at some of their claims:
BIDEN: "Well, we weren't told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security again. And by the way, at the time we were told exactly - we said exactly what the intelligence community told us that they knew. That was the assessment. And as the intelligence community changed their view, we made it clear they changed their view."
RYAN: "There were requests for more security."
THE FACTS: Ryan is right, judging by testimony from Obama administration officials at the hearing a day earlier.
Charlene R. Lamb, a deputy assistant secretary for diplomatic security, told lawmakers she refused requests for more security in Benghazi, saying the department wanted to train Libyans to protect the consulate. "Yes, sir, I said personally I would not support it," she said.
Eric Nordstrom, who was the top security official in Libya earlier this year, testified he was criticized for seeking more security. He said conversations he had with people in Washington led him to believe that it was "abundantly clear we were not going to get resources until the aftermath of an incident. How thin does the ice have to get before someone falls through?"
He said his exasperation reached a point where he told a colleague that "for me the Taliban is on the inside of the building."
---
RYAN: "Look at just the $90 billion in stimulus the vice president was in charge of overseeing - this $90 billion in green pork to campaign contributors and special interest groups."
THE FACTS: Dismissing an entire package of energy stimulus grants and loans as "green pork" ignores the help that was given to people to make their homes more energy efficient, grants to public entities constructing high speed rail lines and tax credits to manufacturers to install equipment fostering cleaner energy.
To be sure, there were notable failed investments, such as $528 million to the politically connected and now-bankrupt solar power company Solyndra. But Ryan's claim made it sound like every penny went down the drain.
More broadly, economists are nearly universal in saying Obama's $800 billion-plus stimulus passed in early 2009 helped create both public-sector and private-sector jobs, even if they fell short of what sponsors had hoped. Douglas Elmendorf, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, estimated the stimulus saved or created more than 3 million jobs.
---
BIDEN: "We went out and rescued General Motors."
THE FACTS: Actually, the auto bailout of General Motors and Chrysler began under President George W. Bush. The Obama administration continued and expanded it.
--- RYAN: "And then they put this new Obamacare board in charge of cutting Medicare each and every year in ways that will lead to denied care for current seniors. This board, by the way, it's 15 people, the president's supposed to appoint them next year. And not one of them even has to have medical training."
THE FACTS: Ryan is referring to the Independent Payment Advisory Board, created under President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law. It has the power to force cuts in Medicare payments to service providers if costs rise above certain levels and Congress fails to act. But it doesn't look like the board will be cutting Medicare "each and every year," as Ryan asserts. Medicare costs are currently rising modestly and the government's own experts project the board's intervention will not be needed until 2018 and 2019 at the earliest - after Obama leaves office if re-elected to a second term.
---
BIDEN, when asked who would pay more taxes in Obama's second term: "People making a million dollars or more."
THE FACTS: Obama's proposed tax increase reaches farther down the income ladder than millionaires. He wants to roll back Bush-era tax cuts for individuals making over $200,000 and couples making more than $250,000.
---
RYAN: "We cannot allow Iran to gain a nuclear weapons capability. Now, let's take a look at where we've gone - come from. When Barack Obama was elected, they had enough fissile material - nuclear material - to make one bomb. Now they have enough for five. They're racing toward a nuclear weapon. They're four years closer toward a nuclear weapons capability."
THE FACTS: Ryan's claim is misleading. Iran isn't believed to have produced any of the highly enriched uranium needed to produce even one nuclear weapon, let alone five. That point isn't even disputed by Israel, whose Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu implored the world at the United Nations last month to create a "red line" at enrichment above 20 percent. Iran would have to enrich uranium at much higher levels to produce a weapon. There is intelligence suggesting that Iran has worked on weapon designs, but not that it has developed a delivery system for any potential nuclear warhead.
---
BIDEN: "What we did is, we saved $716 billion and put it back, applied it to Medicare."
THE FACTS: Contrary to Biden's assertion, not all the money cut from Medicare is going back into the program in some other way. The administration is cutting $716 billion over 10 years in Medicare payments to providers and using some of the money to improve benefits under the program. But most of the money is being used to expand health care coverage outside of Medicare.
---
RYAN: "What troubles me more is how this administration has handled all of these issues. Look at what they're doing through Obamacare with respect to assaulting the religious liberties of this country. They're infringing upon our first freedom, the freedom of religion, by infringing on Catholic charities, Catholic churches, Catholic hospitals."
THE FACTS: The requirement under the health care law that most employers cover birth control free of charge to female employees does not apply to churches, houses of worship, or other institutions directly involved in propagating a religious faith. It does apply to church-affiliated institutions such as hospitals and charities that serve the general public.
---
BIDEN: "Romney said 'No, let Detroit go bankrupt.'"
THE FACTS: GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney has gotten endless grief through the campaign for the headline put on his November 2008 opinion essay that he wrote for The New York Times. But his point was never that he wanted the auto industry to go down the tubes.
Romney opposed using government money to bail out Chrysler and General Motors, instead favoring privately financed bankruptcy restructuring. His prescription seemed improbable. Automakers were hemorrhaging cash and the banking system was in crisis, so private money wasn't available. Without the government money, it's likely both companies would have gone out of business. Romney did propose government-guaranteed private loans for both companies after bankruptcy.
---
RYAN: "We should have spoken out right away when the green revolution was up and starting, when the mullahs in Iran were attacking their people. We should not have called Bashar Assad a reformer when he was turning his Russian-provided guns on his own people.
THE FACTS: Neither President Barack Obama nor anyone else in his administration ever considered the Syrian leader a "reformer." The oft-repeated charge stems from an interview Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton gave in March 2011 noting that "many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he's a reformer." She did not endorse that view. The comment was widely perceived to be a knock at senators such as John Kerry of Massachusetts who maintained cordial relations with Assad in the months leading up to his crackdown on protesters.
---
RYAN: "This one tax would actually tax about 53 percent of small-business income."
BIDEN: "Ninety-seven percent of the small businesses in America pay less - make less than $250,000."
THE FACTS: Both are correct, but incomplete, when sizing up the effect on small business of raising taxes for individuals making more than $200,000 and married couples making more than $250,000, as Obama wants to do. Republicans say that would hit small-business owners who report business income on their individual income tax; Democrats say the overwhelming majority of small businesses would not be affected.
According to a 2010 report by the Joint Committee on Taxation, the official scorekeeper for Congress, about 3 percent of people who report business income would face a tax increase under Obama's plan. That support's Biden's point.
The same report says those business owners account for about half of all business income. That supports Ryan.
---
RYAN: Notes that there have been four rounds of U.N. sanctions on Iran to deter its nuclear program, three during the Bush administration and one under Obama. "And the only reason we got it is because Russia watered it down and prevented the sanctions from hitting the central bank. Mitt Romney proposed these sanctions in 2007. In Congress, I've been fighting for these sanctions since 2009. The administration was blocking us every step of the way." He also noted the administration has granted 20 waivers to the sanctions.
THE FACTS: The argument that the administration was watering down or delaying sanctions is misleading. For sanctions to work, they need maximum global agreement and cooperation. Russia watered down U.N. sanctions not only under Obama, but also under Bush. And it's highly unlikely that a Romney administration, particularly led by a candidate who says Russia is the biggest geostrategic threat to the U.S., would be able to get Russia completely on board with what the U.S. wants to - either in Iran or Syria.
The more absolute U.S. sanctions that Ryan and others have pushed in Congress would have punished U.S. allies, including most countries in Europe as well as Japan and South Korea, along with good friends like India and Singapore - without the exemptions that were put in place.
The administration has indeed granted 20 waivers, to countries that made significant reductions in Iranian oil imports. And the sanctions are pinching; Iran has been convulsed over the past week with protests over the collapse of its currency, which most people say is a direct result of the sanctions that the U.S. and others have imposed.
BIDEN is a LIAR PERIOD - nice attempt at spinning against Ryan at worst they had to admit at least part of every thing is said was TRUE!! LOL.
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Not a bad debate considering Ryan had to debate Biden and the moderator who OBAMA had been at her wedding...
Too painful to watch that kind of bickering. The moderator was terrible at keeping those clowns in line. Biden was useless and the GOP agenda is not worth voting for.. Where's Ralph Nader? Hahahaha.. crying inside.
When Biden pointed out that those 3% of "small businesses" that were really hedge funds and super millionaires hiding out as "small businesses filing as individuals" wouldn't have a tax increase if they simply re-invested in the business and/or hired more people instead of hoarding the profits that their taxes wouldn't go up, he won the debate.
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Ryan could not promise to the American people that they would be allowed to keep their mortgage deduction. When Reagan and Tip worked out a deal they both brought specifics beforehand. Ryan's claim that he can't have specifics is a lie.Â
 @NorthwestEconomist "Ryan could not promise to the American people that they would be allowed to keep their mortgage deduction."
Correct - they say it's going to be up to the Congress, all they will do is present a plan of their changes...and yet they absolutely refuse to show ANYONE even the parameters of these "plans", even put the outline on the web...so how can anyone conclude that the "plan" either doesn't exist, or it does exist and there are things they do not want the public to see...?
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Ryan is self-righteous and Biden is condescending. Neither are very endearing. Neither understand the working class, and both reek of privilege and disdain for the working class. Neither seem very trustworthy. But in the end I can't support the Republican ticket with its overwhelming religious and moral agenda, and continued commitment to feed a military industrial complex who's financing is bankrupting our nation.
 @Bellevue Scott What you said! I feel the same way.
It doesn't take much intuition to see through Obama's smarmy swagger and attitude during almost every speech we see. I would vote for him 100% if that was what we were looking for in a leader. But it's so painfully obvious that the Obama/Biden ticket is so shallow that they have to resort to theatrics just to get the votes. I'm sorry to say it just might work. The networks are pumping us all full of how much they love Obama and the average American will vote again for the guy who will give share our hard earned money with them all.
 @Lindym And you can't see through Romney/Ryan's "I'm such a good guy. I'm just one of you" B.S.? Both parties are full of it in my opinion. But trying to make laws based more on religion than our Constitution is what is keeping me away from Romney/Ryan. Obama/Biden in my opinion are the slightly lesser of two evils only because they are not trying to over-ride the separation of church and state. Otherwise, both parties running are worthless in my opinion.
 @Julia  @Lindym "Romney/Ryan's "I'm such a good guy. I'm just one of you" B.S.?"
Actually, Ryan's demeanor is more "Hey! I'm smarter than you are! So I'll just ignore you!"
"It does apply to church-affiliated institutions such as hospitals and charities that serve the general public."
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News flash: Churches themselves serve, and employ, people from the "general public" as well as members of their church.
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Any business owner should be allowed to keep running their own business without paying for a service that will put them at odds with their God. To many Christians, this mandate is exactly like telling them they have to pay for someone to kill their children.
 @A Believer I am pro-choice and believe strongly in separation of church and state - but even I believe making a hospital that is run by the Catholic Church perform abortions or do anything against the Catholic beliefs is wrong. If someone needs that kind of medical attention there are plenty of hospitals that are not Catholic hospitals. That's just offensive in my opinion.
 @Julia  @A Believer "making a hospital that is run by the Catholic Church perform abortions"
Where is there ANY wording in the law that says that?
 @A Believer  @Julia You want to deny women the right to control their own bodies, and you call ME an A-H?
 @OrcasThunder  @Julia I hadn't un-followed it yet, no need to be such an ass-hole by the way.
 @A Believer  @Julia One more wet log pulled out of the woodpile...
 @OrcasThunder  @Julia LOL you chastise me for using Google as a "source" while you use Huffington Post as a source? Ok I'm un-following this thread now... ;-)
 @A Believer  @Julia "All Christians strive to provide spiritual guidance"
Especially to those who don't want it...or need it...or ask for it.
 @A Believer  @Julia Not in Mississippi...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/27/mississippi-abortion-lawsuit_n_1632272.html
 @OrcasThunder  @Julia Wrong... there are plenty of abortion clinics everywhere.
 @OrcasThunder  @Julia ..or they can just remove the mandate. Wouldn't that be simpler? Remember, we're still "before" this goes into effect, so there is still time to stop it before people start closing their businesses or suing the government by the thousands. (They are already suing by the dozens)
 @A Believer  @Julia "it isn't like they are preventing people from getting them"
Tell that to the many women in most of the Southern States who don't have those services available BECAUSE of those good christian folks who shut all the clinics down by intimidating and even murdering the providers...
 @A Believer  @Julia "Nobody should be forced to pay for something that goes against their moral beliefs IF it can be proven that those beliefs are actually supported by some (unknown) percentage of the population or group"
Great! I'll file for a refund on the taxes I was forced to pay for the war in Iraq! Which I was totally opposed to from the first time Bush had a thought, and I BELIEVE that it was an immoral war...and there are millions of people in this country who believe the same thing!
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 @OrcasThunder  @Julia Well, I'm certainly not walking to Washington DC tonight...
 @A Believer  @Julia Now you are using Google as your "source"?
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 @OrcasThunder  @Julia You might just Google "hhs mandate unconstitutional" and peruse the 19,000 hits...
 @A Believer  @Julia :This is why the HHS mandate isn't only unconstitutional"
Based on what wording in the Constitution - exactly?
 @OrcasThunder  @Julia This is why the HHS mandate isn't only unconstitutional (no matter what our liberal supreme court says) it is also just plain wrong.
 @OrcasThunder  @Julia "what is to stop ANY business from claiming to be a "christian" business?"
Nothing! I think nobody should be required to pay for abortions if it goes against their moral beliefs. In answer to your next question: Nobody should be forced to pay for something that goes against their moral beliefs IF it can be proven that those beliefs are actually supported by some (unknown) percentage of the population or group. IE: you shouldn't be able to claim that it is against your moral beliefs to pay for anything with blue paint on it, etc, etc... If people want to get a service that a Christian provider does not provide, they can go somewhere else! There are many other abortion providers out there -- and currently Christian businesses and hospitals AREN'T doing abortions -- it isn't like they are preventing people from getting them, they just don't want to do or pay for them. Nobody is out there demanding that McDonalds sell Papa-John's pizzas either. This is no different.
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"With regards to hospitals, where in the Hippocratic Oath does it provide for serving ONLY those of one faith?"
It doesn't, and they don't. They serve everyone, but they don't have to provide every service known to mankind, either. So, if they aren't required to sell hamburgers or gasoline, why abortions?
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"Because by definition they are not providing spiritual guidance"
All Christians strive to provide spiritual guidance.
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"...and they are not entitled to the protections of church and state exclusions."
Protections... so, what are they asking for protection from? They are asking for protection from doing abortions, so they don't get sent to hell for all eternity or sin against their God -- what is more important than that? (Nothing, to a Christian)
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"Once again, one of you threatens violence if you are not allowed to practice your religion of Peace in your own fashion"
Wow... so you say that everyone should be required to pay for other people to have abortions, but Christians should not be allowed to live their life according to their beliefs? It is a short step from a Government forcing everyone to live as it sees fit against everyone's beliefs of every kind. Then our society would be free to impose life age limits, birth quotas (like China), death sentences for every crime, etc, etc. We simply can't stomp on the freedom of religious expression or the whole thing falls like a house of cards.
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"That's getting old...it's stupid, it's ignorant, and it's childish. And you people wonder why so many people don't respect your church hype any more..."
I think maybe you protest too much... could it be that people with more moral obligations make those that don't feel uncomfortable? Or, maybe it is the God of the universe pounding on their conscience...
 @A Believer  @Julia "But what about Christian-run businesses in general?"
What about them? If they are in the business of serving the general public, why should they be exempt? If that idea were to gain ground, what is to stop ANY business from claiming to be a "christian" business? IF they cater to all people, that includes people of faiths different from their own - should they then be allowed to limit their clientele to just members of THEIR faith?Â
With regards to hospitals, where in the Hippocratic Oath does it provide for serving ONLY those of one faith? If the hospitals serve anyone, regardless of faith, how can they claim to be "church" businesses? Plus, if they receive one dime of federal money, they are no longer entitled to the church exemptions on taxes, or on their responsibilities to the people they are claiming to serve.
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"But what about Christian-run businesses in general?Why are they any different than a church"
Because by definition they are not providing spiritual guidance, and they are not entitled to the protections of church and state exclusions. Frankly, far too many "businesses" are already included in that "we are a church" classification - it gets to be a joke sometimes. Should a bookseller be allowed tax exemptions since the just happen to have a section of shelves labeled "Religion"? I make and sell wooden bowls, bowls that are turned with great reverence and respect for the wood, which was once a living thing. If I say that my approach to turning is "Zen like", am I entitled to exclude that portion of my income from taxes?
No, I don't think so.
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"Civil wars have been fought for less important reasons..."
Once again, one of you threatens violence if you are not allowed to practice your religion of Peace in your own fashion...
That's getting old...it's stupid, it's ignorant, and it's childish.
And you people wonder why so many people don't respect your church hype any more...
 @OrcasThunder  @Julia The law is being litigated in court to attempt to rule it unconstitutional because of this. The administration drew the line at churches, not hospitals, so far.The current law says that Churches are exempt, which by default means that all other businesses and organizations are not exempt.
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But what about Christian-run businesses in general? Why are they any different than a church or church-run hospital? The pastors and priests are not any more or less of a Christian than any other Christian. Why must all Christians be forced to make a choice between running their business and sinning, or giving up their business. This law, if it stands, will have the effect of running many Christian businesses out of business. If they'd just drop their terrible crusade to make everyone support abortion, we'd have a lot less strife regarding the healthcare laws.
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Someone's "right" to have a service of ANY kind must not force another to disobey their God. There MUST always be an opt-out for these things, or our liberties are on the way out. Civil wars have been fought for less important reasons...
 @A Believer The enemy is hard at work... watering down your religion... dividing your congregation(s)........ Forcing your children to teachings contrary to your beliefs, values and morals... It's all out spiritual warfare... (my opinion).
 @Funky-Munky  @A Believer Freedom of religion and seperation  from state. The people that want to press their religion onto someone else during political debates should have to take a history exam to vote!!!! Just for sake. What if your the antichrist?  Does not the believers need to believe the antichrist is of themÂ
@mnota4me @Funky-Munky @A Believer
If you go to work for a religious establishment should you not expect to at the very least to behave in such a way as to not offend those who run it?? If you go to work for a company that has taken any public stand you find that the culture with in is pushing the employees in that direction. If you do not like the political bent of the company quit the job and go elsewhere. If you read the constitution it is very clear. The state must stay out of the church but, the church may get involved with the state⦠Any church at any time including the none âChristianâ ones.
My belief: America and its politics have become an embarrassment to the people they represent.... Lies, inaction and failure from all of them. Romney is a fool for trying to repeal roe vs. wade which was an absolute victory for women. Obama's Administration knew the embassy was not secured.. they admitted as much by discussing the money wasn't there for it. Knowing that the money wasn't enough to provide ample security should've been more than enough to remove the ambassador until ample protection could be provided. Always blaming something other than admitting any fault. Easier to water down the truth with more lies, committees and continue spinning the truth to cover their arses. (my opinion)
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What are "we the people" going to do? I believe this and more is destroying our country and dividing us. We are left with no clear choices. We have men who are weak trying to pretend like they have a plan. All I see is children in big boy shoes. We for the most part should be furious. I would rather not vote for any of them. They're truly not man enough.
 @Funky-Munky Exactly!
 @Funky-Munky Unfortunatly too often now it's "me the people" instead of "we the people". Independent gains are more important than what is good for all.
 @Hopp excellent observation...
Flip-Flop Biden tried to fight agianst "Roe vs. Wade"Â when it was first out. Biden lied to the American People that they did not know there was another Terrorist attack on 9/11 this year
and again like the Obama 2 week lie that tied it to non existent protest at the consulate when Obama's
State Department told them on Sept 12, 2012 this was a terror attack. I voted for Obama
in 2008 this is more lies piled onto lies and reminds me of the Nixon Coverup except there are 4 dead americans that could have been saved had the 2 prior request for more security in Libya been addressed. As one CNN undecided person put it Biden acted like a Bufoon and to me he acted like a rude child that is one heart beat away from being President.
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 @Funky-Munky I start liking you ;-) The country has much better people for office than what the elections offer. IMHO the system of financing elections is part of the problem. It gets all sorts of special interests "buying" the next president who then in turn owes them special returns on investment. This is not democracy, this is oligarchy. If you want democracy, you need to empower "the people" e.g. by plebiscite (Internet would be a great tool). Another option would be to reduce government to bare minimum, and have communities organize themselves - but it also depends a little on what you think the US's role should be internationally in terms of military and world police. I am not sure about this one myself. Â
 @Komo Dragon You're right on track and very well thought out... I want to copy and paste it everywhere! very nice indeed... smart egg.
 @Komo Dragon I practice that here... whoops... sometimes it backfires... I have been mocked, ridiculed, and stalked.. kinda scary. Oh, i must own up to my crap too... I can be a poo sometimes with other combative posters.. I try my hardest not to.. When you lose your temper... the enemy has you by the... well.. you get the picture.
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 @Funky-Munky we need a sarcasm practice site ... free postings with impunity or second guessing
 @Komo Dragon Dang it... I will have to try harder.. Ha! :D)
 @Funky-Munky i waive my copyrights ;-)
 @Funky-Munky The American People are MIA in their governments. No one participates in any meaningfull, effective way. No one has any idea what is going on anywhere in America any more. If you want to blame someone for this mess, look to the American People.
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Self government can not work without citizen participation. The American People haven't participated for a solid sixty year, at a level needed to ensure that freedom remain within our lives.
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We the People gave these guys every despotism that they hold over us, by failing to govern. It is on the American People to turn this around, by stepping up & governing this nation again. Or our decline is perpetual.Â
 @Libertyinfinite A little more:
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"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not traitor, he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared." - Cicero, 42 B.C.
 @Libertyinfinite Nope... I don't blame the American people.... We aren't in control of the purse strings, war(s) and much of anything else. When the child is bad you blame the parent(s) for its parenting abilities. (small analogy)
 @Darn it!  @Funky-Munky If our country has it's way (on both Democrats and Republicans sides) the entire world will be a "democracy" (their bastardized version of the word) and will be ruled by the people who can be "elected" and those people will be the ones who have the most convincing multi-billionaire dollar propaganda campaigns. Then everyone will feel "free" despite being completely duped.
 @Funky-Munky  @Libertyinfinite I see both of your points, but one of the downfalls of our society I do have to say is how American people love to be spoon-fed propaganda and both parties spend millions of dollars on inundating us with propaganda instead of saying what is really going on. The corruption in our government spending is enormous in this nation and it is on both sides of the political spectrum. But so many people are blinded by the propaganda that "it's the Republicans fault" "it's the Democrats fault!" that it keeps us divided and unable to get past the surface fighting that our politicians thrive on and let's them get away with this stuff. I think it's the fault of both politicians for being corrupt and many Americans for being lazy thinkers. And our society and education system for encouraging lack of critical thinking.
 @Darn it! Goodnight... I had no idea the time.. whoops...
 @Funky-Munky Ditto back at ya except that I'm closing in on 70 way too soon.
 @Darn it! I admit I haven't a clue sometimes with all this political mumbo jumbo... I just go with my gut, heart and my mind... kinda scary. My mind sparks a bit and sputters... I am drawn to the cosmic... I cannot help... Can You blame me? I have never seen so much hate, anger and confusion in all my years alive 40 somethin'....
 @Funky-Munky One thing that is absolute is...well, there are no absolutes. Tempers are hot now and some people are all about their absolute even though it will work against them. Many low information voters just don't have a clue and follow the trail of M&Ms. In other words, they are told what to think and they don't question it.
 @Darn it! I hope it isn't me that's causing a rift in the force... If I am I will can it. I am only trying to point ou the obvious lies, deception and where we may be going. There's no absolutes here. I will let you know if that changes. Ha!
 @Funky-Munky He has to go to Fox and get a response. That is the type of crap that accomplishes nothing. I wish posts would stick to policies and not get into ragging on people. Just the facts mam', just give me the facts.Â
I think this is a my bad, I shouldn't be looking for facts in a forum like this. But I do get pointed to things to research.
 @Darn it! Shucks... looks like Gene S. didn't feel like debating my questions... bummer.
 @Darn it! There will be some countries such as China etc. that will not participate... Think of the E.U. a.k.a European Union etc. and America joined together under one rule and currency. Many leaders have already discussed it will take the right crisis to make it happen. Iran? maybe... N.Korea possible etc.
 @Funky-Munky Repealing Citizen's United would be a start.
I can see one world currency soon but realistically not government.Â
 @Darn it! You're starting to understand the Globalist deceptions... It's easy to manipulate the people when you control the money, war(s) and other various resources. Absolute power corrupts... every time. This will be no different. I also believe we're not to far away from a one world currency or government.
 @Funky-Munky  @Libertyinfinite In my opinion the majority of the American people are so busy just trying to keep their head above water they don't have time to get into politics on a daily basis. Or to be active.Does that excuse us? Not my call.
I think it takes things to get to the point where things are now before people lift their heads up and say 'hey, wait a minute. What's going on and how did we get here'. And more importantly, how do we get out?Â
I really think this election and the one following will determine if we stand or fall.