Gay marriage arguments put U.S. gov't lawyer on defense

NEW YORK (AP) - A federal appeals court panel forced a Justice Department lawyer into an awkward position Thursday, making him explain the government's decision to abandon defending the Defense of Marriage Act as judges decide the fate of a law destined for the U.S. Supreme Court.
"In my day, when you won, you didn't appeal," a smiling Chief Judge Dennis Jacobs of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals told Acting Assistant Attorney General Stuart Delery after Delery rose from his seat near lawyers defending the law even as he seemed to speak out against it.
Later, Judge Chester Straub demanded to know why the government quit defending the constitutionality of a 1996 law that defines marriage as involving a man and a woman after having spoken in favor of it for nearly 15 years.
Delery said the switch came in early 2011 at the direction of President Barack Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder after the administration reviewed the law and concluded that it deserved a stricter view of what constituted discrimination than the legal reasoning that had previously been applied.
Months from now, the 2nd Circuit is expected to rule whether Manhattan Judge Barbara Jones was right when she found the law unconstitutional in June, just like several other federal judges and a federal appeals court in Boston have done.
Repeatedly, Delery spoke about discrimination in America against people over their sexual choices.
"Gay and lesbian people have been subjected to a long history of discrimination that continues to this day," he said.
He called the expression of sexual orientation "an integral part of human freedom."
Yet, he added: "It's still the case that the rights of gays and lesbians usually lose when put up for a vote."
He said it was "crystal clear" that passage of the law was "motivated in significant part by disapproval of gay and lesbian people."
Straub responded with a snap: "Did you tell that to Congress in 1996, what you just now told us?"
Delery said some letters may have been sent to some representatives at the time.
"What is it that changed your view?" Straub demanded before Delery explained the February 2011 switch by Obama and Holder.
Jones ruled that the law intrudes upon the states' regulation of domestic relations. Her decision came after Edith Windsor sued the government in November 2010 because she was told to pay $363,053 in federal estate tax after her partner of 44 years, Thea Spyer, died in 2009. They had married in Canada in 2007.
The law, which denies federal recognition of same-sex marriages and affirms the right of states to refuse to recognize such marriages, was passed by Congress and signed by President Bill Clinton after it appeared in 1993 that Hawaii might legalize gay marriage. Since then, many states have banned gay marriage but several have approved it, including Massachusetts and New York. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said last week she believes the Defense of Marriage Act will reach the Supreme Court within the next year.
Lawyer Paul Clement, speaking on behalf of the Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group of the House of Representatives, which is defending the law, told the appeals court that the Defense of Marriage Act was consistent with the intention of Congress to continue "preserving programs the way they've always been - not opening these programs to others."
He said the desire to save the government money was a rational basis for the law as well, though "you can't go about that rational basis in an irrational way."
As an example, he said the government cannot deny benefits to blue-eyed people.
"In my day, when you won, you didn't appeal," a smiling Chief Judge Dennis Jacobs of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals told Acting Assistant Attorney General Stuart Delery after Delery rose from his seat near lawyers defending the law even as he seemed to speak out against it.
Later, Judge Chester Straub demanded to know why the government quit defending the constitutionality of a 1996 law that defines marriage as involving a man and a woman after having spoken in favor of it for nearly 15 years.
Delery said the switch came in early 2011 at the direction of President Barack Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder after the administration reviewed the law and concluded that it deserved a stricter view of what constituted discrimination than the legal reasoning that had previously been applied.
Months from now, the 2nd Circuit is expected to rule whether Manhattan Judge Barbara Jones was right when she found the law unconstitutional in June, just like several other federal judges and a federal appeals court in Boston have done.
Repeatedly, Delery spoke about discrimination in America against people over their sexual choices.
"Gay and lesbian people have been subjected to a long history of discrimination that continues to this day," he said.
He called the expression of sexual orientation "an integral part of human freedom."
Yet, he added: "It's still the case that the rights of gays and lesbians usually lose when put up for a vote."
He said it was "crystal clear" that passage of the law was "motivated in significant part by disapproval of gay and lesbian people."
Straub responded with a snap: "Did you tell that to Congress in 1996, what you just now told us?"
Delery said some letters may have been sent to some representatives at the time.
"What is it that changed your view?" Straub demanded before Delery explained the February 2011 switch by Obama and Holder.
Jones ruled that the law intrudes upon the states' regulation of domestic relations. Her decision came after Edith Windsor sued the government in November 2010 because she was told to pay $363,053 in federal estate tax after her partner of 44 years, Thea Spyer, died in 2009. They had married in Canada in 2007.
The law, which denies federal recognition of same-sex marriages and affirms the right of states to refuse to recognize such marriages, was passed by Congress and signed by President Bill Clinton after it appeared in 1993 that Hawaii might legalize gay marriage. Since then, many states have banned gay marriage but several have approved it, including Massachusetts and New York. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said last week she believes the Defense of Marriage Act will reach the Supreme Court within the next year.
Lawyer Paul Clement, speaking on behalf of the Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group of the House of Representatives, which is defending the law, told the appeals court that the Defense of Marriage Act was consistent with the intention of Congress to continue "preserving programs the way they've always been - not opening these programs to others."
He said the desire to save the government money was a rational basis for the law as well, though "you can't go about that rational basis in an irrational way."
As an example, he said the government cannot deny benefits to blue-eyed people.
The world is flat!
Give it ten years and gay marriage will be hardly noticed. Yes it will happen in the same way the Jim Crow laws were repealed last century. It will just take time.
 @Charl317 Perhaps, but that does not prove it is a good idea.  Many things can happen "given time".
 @Vertex  @Charl317 Oh no, the sky will be falling!
 @WhatRJDid Oh no, you destroyed my point!  Wait.....oh, no you didn't.  Sorry, you pulled me into your crappy logic for a sec.  ;)
government should be in the "civil union" business... plain and simple... for simply establishing a legal contract between two consenting adults. Leave "marriage" up to churches and let the protagonists focus their angst there.
I have no problem with a law which sets forth a legally binding homosexual relationship. If you wish to give them partnership privileges including tax breaks, so be it. Just donât pervert the term marriage.  That is a relationship reserved for a man and a woman. I very much resent marriage being dragged down to that level.   Â
 @oldster70 Marriage used to be a contract between two families where the two being married had no choice and the brides family basically sold their daughter off. (in some places, it still is)  The definition of marriage has already changed.  Hate to break it to you.
 @oldster70 Yeah, I feel the same way when I flip through the reality shows on TV. Those people really degrade marriage. And they're all straight.
 @WhatRJDid Maybe you should do more Bible reading and less T.V. watching if you want to know what reality is.
 @MC What's an "exactally"?Â
 @WhatRJDid Exactally the response I expected from someone who thinks they know everything there is to know about politics, the rights and wrongs of others, religion, etc. but in REALITY, it shows they know nothing, BTW, just what did RJ do?   Peace be with you...
 @MC BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Reality? Bible? Oh dear........
 @oldster70 Marriage already means the joining of two separate things.
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And what level do you consider marriage to be at right now, with the massive divorce rate and 5-minute marriages so loved by celebrities? if anything it will be dragged up!
 @therunner Marriage is a in a terrible state - that doesn't mean it's a good idea to radically alter it's definition.
 @WhatRJDid Altering it from opposite sex only to same sex also.
 @Vertex  @therunner Really? Altering it from a secular, government contract to what, exactly?
I have no problem with gay marriage. Marriage is between two people and the deity of their choice (if any).
The only reason the government got involved is to collect MORE taxes, and infringe MORE on peoples rights.
Then they said it was for the children.
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I just want equal rights for all.
If Bill and Joe can get get medical (cuz they're not related) for life, why can't Frank and his mother who lives with him?
Because they're related? Realy? They don't have sex with each other so they should be denied the same benefits gays get?
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No one has ever given me a valid response to this question. Never.
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BTW, Frank is quadraplegic. His Mother works two jobs cuz she's denied the benefits that gays get.
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Open the box. For Frank and his Moms sake. They deserve the equal rights the gays are after. Don't they?
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 @bobalouie Well, let's see...most people don't want to marry their parents.  Doing so for insurance money is usually considered fraud. Â
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If there is an honest incestuous relationship between parent and child, there is usually an abusive component to the relationship so the child (even if an adult) is not really consenting, are they?
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And in your example, why isn't Frank getting state or federal disability?
 @bobalouie:Â
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If Bill and Joe can get get medical (cuz they're not related) for life, why can't Frank and his mother who lives with him?
Because they're related? Realy? They don't have sex with each other so they should be denied the same benefits gays get?
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No one has ever given me a valid response to this question. Never ...."
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Well, I will attempt to give you an answer. It boils down to what the IRS considers an "eligible dependant".Â
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If, in your example, Mom is supporting Frank, paying more than 50% of his care & upkeep, he would be considered a legal dependant per the IRS fotr tax purposes, and Mom would be able to claim him as a dependant on her federal income taxes.Â
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Most private medical insurance plans require that those covered be either the insured themselves, a spouse or a legal dependant. However, since most plans are paid for by the employer, it is ultimately the EMPLOYER who decides who they will consider an "eligble dependant" for insurance purposes. Some plans will cover "common law" spouses, others will not. Some will cover grandchildren of the insured, others will not. Some will cover children in the process of being adopted, others wil not cover them until the adoption if completed. No two insurance plans or coverages are exactly the same.Â
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This is NOT the case for Medicatre/Medicaid - for those programs, each person has to "qualify" on their own merits (so to speak)..
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 @bobalouie FAIL. Great. Big. Fail.
 @WhatRJDid Uh...calling someone's argument a "fail" proves nothing.  Where you incapable of making a real response?
 @WhatRJDid Calling it "ridiculous" proves nothing either.  Nor does claiming your reponse was "appropriate".  Sorry.
 @Vertex That post was ridiculous, that is an appropriate response.
What would Jesus say?
 @Blindman I think he'd refer you to Matthew 25 and call anyone arguing about gay marriage rather than caring for the poor, sick, homeless and jailed a "goat" and send them off to hell.
 @WhatRJDid Well since you want to bring scripture into this and want to really know what GOD thinks, why don't you read Romans 1: 26 thru 32.
 @MC Fanatical scripture troll is fanatical.
 @WhatRJDid For someone who doesn't care about what MY book says, you seem to think you know what these scriptures mean, this perhaps tells me you do glance at MY book, but you interpert the meaning to suit what you think, not what it is actually saying, and fyi, "ALL SCRIPTURES ARE INSPIRED BY GOD"
 @MC I don't care what your book says, I only respond to those who would quote it. And as for Romans, are those quotes from Jesus? No.
 @WhatRJDid I have been saying the same thing for months or years. Jesus said that false "christs" would arise and show signs and wonders and - were it possible - deceive even the very elect. I'm afraid there are a lot of thoroughly-deceived people who have been confidently calling themselves "Christians".
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Harsh words...!
Telling consenting adults that they aren't allowed to be married because of your religious beliefs is like me telling you that you aren't allowed to eat a cupcake because I'm on a diet.Â
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 @The WA Mama Except there are people against gay marriage who aren't saying that.
 @Vertex  @The WA Mama Citations?
Gay marriage aside, this is troubling.
Holder failed to do his job by defending a law passed by Congress and approved by the President. Even more Holder blatantly ignored the law and is duties as the Attorney General and as an attorney. He should be dis-barred.
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Law making is for the Legislators, and the people by initiative. Making laws is not the courts' responsibility. Â
@Rider However ensuring that laws are constitutional is the courtsâ responsibility.
This shouldn't be up for debate. It should be an unquestionable right.
"Icky" isn't an acceptable reason not allow for it.Â
It will not weaken anyone's marriage, only the couple involved can weaken that union.
It's not scary.
It's discrimation at its core, and goes against all the principles I've learned as an American and a Christian.Â
And that fact that we are still willing to legislate discrimation against ourselves is what is scary, and weakens our nation.
It's been more than a year since Obama repealed "Don't Ask Don't Tell."
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Republicans were forecasting the end of the world. Most notably, John McCain who predicted all kinds of problems.
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Well, more than a year later not one bad thing has happened and gays are allowed to serve openly.Â
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And the same is true for gay marriage. It's does not hurt anyone. It actually strengthens the social fabric by creating more stable 2 parent families.
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The Christian bigots are going to kick and scream, and let them. The rest of us need to more forward and live our lives.  Â
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@John Tits:Â
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Ever hear of Brown v. Board of Education? It's a SCOTUS ruling that stated "seperate is NOT equal". So "everything but marriage", since it is spereate & SUPPOSEDLY equal (but not really equal) is ILLEGAL.
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Why is it that those opposed to marriage equality are so fascinated & concerned with what OTHER people, people they do not even k now, will probably never even meet - with what THOSE people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms?
JT - what Christian fears going to hell? If you are a Christian, your sins are covered by The Cross. Of course, if you are a Christian, you are following Jesus - He forgives and did not cast the first or any stone. Also, explain to me, a follower of Jesus, how a marriage between gays is going to cause me to change my morals and beliefs? I don't understand that comment at all.
 @John Tits  @caphillkid We don't have Sharia law in this country. To my knowledge, no large, well organized and funded Muslim group is funding the crusade against gay marriage.
 @John Tits  @caphillkid "You say it doesn't hurt anyone yet I don't think you understand that many Christians fear going hell."
So the irrational fears of a deluded segment of the population should dictate the rights of another segment of the population?
How does someone else's marriage impact whether someone else "goes to hell"? Doesn't THAT depend on the actions of the individual themselves?
 @John Tits Your reasoning is a bit faulty in my opinion. Any Christian I know who is opposed to gay marriage is not afraid that if it passes, they will go to hell. Because they know that if they don't marry someone of the same sex--they do not have to be concerned about that particular 'sin' causing them to go to hell. What you just said makes no sense--if marriage is legalized for same sex couples, no is saying you can't be a Christian, no one is saying or 'forcing' you to marry someone of the same sex. it is that simple. Plus, what difference does it make to a Christian if it is called a civil union, domestic partnership, whatever--according to them, the sin is still in us loving one another. That's why I'm a bit confused by your logic.
 @chickysgirl  @John Tits So then if they are not worried about going to Hell themselves, what is the freaking problem?  Why are Christians so worried about people they don't know going to Hell?  It's none of their business.
 @chickysgirl  @John Tits I suspect that JT is actually letting it slip that if God judges those who hate gays, they WILL go to hell...
@John Tits @caphillkid Christians used to cut off heads, burn at the stake, all sorts of nasty things, all for the cause.Â
It's not about you changing your morals or beliefs. Its about allowing America to be the Land of the Free like she is supposed to be. Its about allowing for others freedoms the way they allow for yours.
Its about the basic human right of having a person love you for who you are.
 @John Tits  @caphillkid
 That's funny, I thought all believers would be gathered up by Jesus and taken away at the end times, and all the sinners would be left to rot. So if you're such a devoted believer, whay should you worry about what someone else is doing?
"Since then, many states have banned gay marriage but several have approved it, including Massachusetts and New York"
Does that mean states can ban interracial marriages too? Â Or does it mean states can make blacks ride in the back of the bus again? Either its a civil right or it isn't. They need to make up their minds.
'He said the desire to save the government money was a rational basis for the law as well,'
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Married people get a better deduction on their income tax...etc, etc. Funny how this plays into it...
 @Grumpa "Married people get a better deduction on their income tax...etc, etc"
Where? Haven't you heard of "The marriage penalty"? My taxes have gone up .