Hope and fear in same-sex marriage cases at high court

WASHINGTON (AP) - Gay marriage supporters see 41 reasons to fret over the Supreme Court's decision to take up the case of California's ban on same-sex unions.
While nine states allow same-sex partners to marry, or will soon, 41 states do not. Of those, 30 have written gay marriage bans into their state constitutions.
That fact is worrisome to those who firmly believe there is a constitutional right to marry, regardless of sexual orientation, but who also know that the Supreme Court does not often get too far ahead of the country on hot-button social issues.
"Mindful of history, I can't help but be concerned," said Mary Bonauto, director of the Civil Rights Project at Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders and a leader in the state-by-state push for marriage equality.
Bonauto was speaking before the court decided on Friday to take up cases on California's constitutional ban on gay marriage and a federal law that denies to gay Americans who are legally married the favorable tax treatment and a range of health and pension benefits otherwise available to married couples.
In 2008, California voters approved the ban, Proposition 8, after the state Supreme Court ruled that gay Californians could marry. Since then, a federal appeals court struck down the constitutional provision, but did not authorize the resumption of same-sex marriages pending appeal.
Bonauto identified three earlier seminal rulings that once and for all outlawed state-backed discrimination, and observed that in each case the number of states that still had the discrimination on the books was far smaller.
Thirteen states still had laws against sodomy when the court said in 2003 that states have no right to intrude on the private, personal conduct of people, regardless of sexual orientation.
Interracial marriage still was illegal in 16 states in 1967 before the high court outlawed race-based state marriage bans.
In 1954, when the court issued its landmark decision in Brown v. Board of Education, 17 states had formally segregated school systems.
Cornell University law professor Michael Dorf said those cases illustrate a widespread misperception about the justices.
"There is a commonly held but inaccurate view that the Supreme Court does is to impose its views on the country. It very rarely does that. Much more frequently, it will take a view that is either a majority in some place or a majority of elite opinion, and speed up acceptance," said Dorf, who was a Supreme Court law clerk to Justice Anthony Kennedy.
The forces that mounted the legal challenge to Proposition 8 have said all along that the right to marry is so fundamental that it should not depend on success at the ballot box or the votes of state legislatures. Washington lawyer Theodore Olson, representing gay Californians who wish to marry, said he will argue that there is a "fundamental constitutional right to marry for all citizens."
But are there five justices, a majority of the court, willing to endorse that argument?
The fear among gay marriage proponents is that the court will refuse to declare that states can no longer define marriage as the union of a man and a woman, because to do so might provoke a backlash in public opinion and undermine acceptance of its authority.
A high court loss for gay marriage advocates would prevent same-sex marriages in the nation's largest state. It would not affect the District of Columbia and the nine states - Connecticut, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Vermont and Washington - where gay couples can or soon will be able to marry.
But it could push back the day that many in the gay rights movement, looking at strong support for gay marriage among younger Americans, see as inevitable: the Supreme Court's endorsement of full marriage equality nationwide.
Commenting after the court's action, Bonauto said she believes the court can uphold an appeals court ruling that struck down Proposition 8 in a way that applies to California only and "leave to a later day questions about broader bans on committed same-sex couples marrying."
Opponents of gay marriage look to another court case, Roe v. Wade, that they say should serve as a cautionary tale. In 1973, the court voted 7-2 to declare that the Constitution protects a woman's right to an abortion.
"Should the Supreme Court decide to overturn the marriage laws of 41 states, the ruling would become even more divisive than the court's infamous Roe v. Wade decision," said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council. "Marriage, unlike abortion laws in the 1970s, has been incorporated into the state constitutions of 30 states. Voters in these states will not accept an activist court redefining our most fundamental social institution."
To a degree, Perkins and Bonauto get some support from one of the nine people with a say in the matter, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
In February, Ginsburg questioned the timing of the abortion decision and suggested it may have contributed to the ongoing bitter debate about abortion.
"It's not that the judgment was wrong, but it moved too far too fast," Ginsburg said at Columbia University.
At the time of Roe v. Wade, abortion was legal on request in four states, allowed under limited circumstances in about 16 others, and outlawed under nearly all circumstances in the other states, including Texas, where the Roe case originated.
The court could have put off dealing with abortion while the state-by-state process evolved, she said. Or her predecessors could have struck down just the Texas law, which allowed abortions only to save a mother's life, without declaring a right to privacy that legalized the procedure nationwide, Ginsburg said.
"The court made a decision that made every abortion law in the country invalid, even the most liberal," Ginsburg said. "We'll never know whether I'm right or wrong ... things might have turned out differently if the court had been more restrained."
While nine states allow same-sex partners to marry, or will soon, 41 states do not. Of those, 30 have written gay marriage bans into their state constitutions.
That fact is worrisome to those who firmly believe there is a constitutional right to marry, regardless of sexual orientation, but who also know that the Supreme Court does not often get too far ahead of the country on hot-button social issues.
"Mindful of history, I can't help but be concerned," said Mary Bonauto, director of the Civil Rights Project at Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders and a leader in the state-by-state push for marriage equality.
Bonauto was speaking before the court decided on Friday to take up cases on California's constitutional ban on gay marriage and a federal law that denies to gay Americans who are legally married the favorable tax treatment and a range of health and pension benefits otherwise available to married couples.
In 2008, California voters approved the ban, Proposition 8, after the state Supreme Court ruled that gay Californians could marry. Since then, a federal appeals court struck down the constitutional provision, but did not authorize the resumption of same-sex marriages pending appeal.
Bonauto identified three earlier seminal rulings that once and for all outlawed state-backed discrimination, and observed that in each case the number of states that still had the discrimination on the books was far smaller.
Thirteen states still had laws against sodomy when the court said in 2003 that states have no right to intrude on the private, personal conduct of people, regardless of sexual orientation.
Interracial marriage still was illegal in 16 states in 1967 before the high court outlawed race-based state marriage bans.
In 1954, when the court issued its landmark decision in Brown v. Board of Education, 17 states had formally segregated school systems.
Cornell University law professor Michael Dorf said those cases illustrate a widespread misperception about the justices.
"There is a commonly held but inaccurate view that the Supreme Court does is to impose its views on the country. It very rarely does that. Much more frequently, it will take a view that is either a majority in some place or a majority of elite opinion, and speed up acceptance," said Dorf, who was a Supreme Court law clerk to Justice Anthony Kennedy.
The forces that mounted the legal challenge to Proposition 8 have said all along that the right to marry is so fundamental that it should not depend on success at the ballot box or the votes of state legislatures. Washington lawyer Theodore Olson, representing gay Californians who wish to marry, said he will argue that there is a "fundamental constitutional right to marry for all citizens."
But are there five justices, a majority of the court, willing to endorse that argument?
The fear among gay marriage proponents is that the court will refuse to declare that states can no longer define marriage as the union of a man and a woman, because to do so might provoke a backlash in public opinion and undermine acceptance of its authority.
A high court loss for gay marriage advocates would prevent same-sex marriages in the nation's largest state. It would not affect the District of Columbia and the nine states - Connecticut, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Vermont and Washington - where gay couples can or soon will be able to marry.
But it could push back the day that many in the gay rights movement, looking at strong support for gay marriage among younger Americans, see as inevitable: the Supreme Court's endorsement of full marriage equality nationwide.
Commenting after the court's action, Bonauto said she believes the court can uphold an appeals court ruling that struck down Proposition 8 in a way that applies to California only and "leave to a later day questions about broader bans on committed same-sex couples marrying."
Opponents of gay marriage look to another court case, Roe v. Wade, that they say should serve as a cautionary tale. In 1973, the court voted 7-2 to declare that the Constitution protects a woman's right to an abortion.
"Should the Supreme Court decide to overturn the marriage laws of 41 states, the ruling would become even more divisive than the court's infamous Roe v. Wade decision," said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council. "Marriage, unlike abortion laws in the 1970s, has been incorporated into the state constitutions of 30 states. Voters in these states will not accept an activist court redefining our most fundamental social institution."
To a degree, Perkins and Bonauto get some support from one of the nine people with a say in the matter, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
In February, Ginsburg questioned the timing of the abortion decision and suggested it may have contributed to the ongoing bitter debate about abortion.
"It's not that the judgment was wrong, but it moved too far too fast," Ginsburg said at Columbia University.
At the time of Roe v. Wade, abortion was legal on request in four states, allowed under limited circumstances in about 16 others, and outlawed under nearly all circumstances in the other states, including Texas, where the Roe case originated.
The court could have put off dealing with abortion while the state-by-state process evolved, she said. Or her predecessors could have struck down just the Texas law, which allowed abortions only to save a mother's life, without declaring a right to privacy that legalized the procedure nationwide, Ginsburg said.
"The court made a decision that made every abortion law in the country invalid, even the most liberal," Ginsburg said. "We'll never know whether I'm right or wrong ... things might have turned out differently if the court had been more restrained."
This whole issue is stupid, unnecessarily divisive and dishonestly debated by both sides. The fact is Washington didn't "legalize" same sex marriage. There was no law preventing gays from getting married it's just that the state didn't officially recognize it. While I agree that it is a right to enter into just about any kind of mutually agreed relationship nobody has a right to have it officially sanctioned by the state. Any inequality issues that arise by not having your marriage officially sanctioned by the state should be dealt with individually because they also affect those of us who choose not to marry or never get the opportunity. I also think the idea that recognizing gay marriage will somehow destroy traditional marriage is kind of absurd. The state has already done plenty of damage to marriage through no fault laws and the hopeless family court system. I hardly think gay marriage is  a threat. Really the state just needs to remain neutral on controversial issues like this. That way neither side can use the power of government to rub it in the faces of the opposition. If you want to get married go to your church, your community or whatever but you don't need to go to the state.
With WA now approving gay marriage...how do these couples now file their tax returns, since it's still not recognized nationally? They are still not subject to the "marriage penalty" are they?Â
 @takncarabizniz Oh, and the "marriage penalty" went away in federal taxes a long time ago. It doesn't exist any more.
@mhungry @takncarabizniz Yes it does, it was removed for several years but was reinstated and is alive and well. If you are filing jointly you may want to look it up.
 @takncarabizniz This is one of the spectrum of issues the Supreme Court has taken up alongside Prop 8. If they strike down DOMA, it would remove this issue from the federal level, while still leaving decisions about gay marriage up to the states. From what I've read, most legal experts believe that DOMA won't survive the legal challenge. The DOMA fight isn't really about gay marriage as much as it is feds vs. states, and marriage has always been the realm of the states. That said, a ruling the other way wouldn't be surprising given the trend towards federalism in our government since it's inception.
A word of advice to same sex couples, (take it as wisdom or take it as BS, your call.);
Over the past couple of years of following this I have gone from being a supporter to "don't give a crap either way".
The reason is, what I have read from from the pro side of the argument has turned me off, and I'm only one person but I'm quite sure I am not alone.
There is no arguing that you have been hit with some pretty serious bigotry and insane arguments on why it should not be legal. But, some people have brought up some intelligent arguments against it. (I won't go into them because that is not the reason for my post)
At the same time I have read way too many posts from the pro side that are just as ugly and with an "IN YOUR FACE" attitude. LeftWing has been a great example of that over the past year or so. Sometimes I think LeftWing is actually a saboteur for your cause.
This is not how you "win". It actually defeats your purpose. Anyone knows that you don't stoop to your opponent's level to gain their support. Yes, you do have to make a lot of noise to be heard but, make the right kind of noise if you want to win. And if/when you do win, do it gracefully.
Just my two cents.
Â
 @SgtPepperSpray If you truly didn't give a crap either way then it would not matter what people post on either side. I never gave a crap and I never will no matter what somebody says, that's the whole not giving a crap thing hard at work. You apparently do give a crap and didn't realize it until you got butt hurt by what some people posted.
 @Rockberry  @SgtPepperSpray I think the fact all SGT did was post it on an obscure web news site IS proof he doesn't care. People who care go out and protest, get bills signed/passed and drum up public support. I'm one of those that felt they needed another term to describe it other than marriage. I don't think people should go around changing traditions for another group of people. Honestly, making sure the cat gets let in come morning is higher on my priority list.
Your snotty attitude is a great example, thx.
 @SgtPepperSpray Too bad that you won't mention some of these "intelligent arguments" against Gay marriage as I'd really love to read an "intelligent argument" against. All the arguments I have read or heard are far from intelligent.
Yeah, from both sides.
Truth is that you have reading comprehension issues.
 @SgtPepperSpray So the truth is you do NOT have any "intelligent reasons" against Gay marriage.
I can't believe we're still having this debate in the 21st century. This is America, the country that is supposed to be a beacon of freedom, justice, and equality for all, a shining example to be followed by the rest of the world. Or so we're repeatedly told, anyway. And yet South Africa, the country most known for Apartheid, has legalized marriage equality well before we have. What the hell is wrong with us when one of the most notoriously bigoted nations in world history recognizes equality for LGBT citizens before us?
This IS America, and so far on this subject, true to the American way, the majority still holds a different opinion on what can be called a marriage than what the minority holds. A lot of it boils down to a definition of one simple word.
I for one don't care either way if it goes nationally one way or the other. But,, I care greatly that we Americans decide one way or another on our own. NOT by what any other country has done.
 @SgtPepperSpray
 Oppression of minorities and suppression of their rights may be part of our history (and sadly, our present), but it most certainly is NOT the American Way.
Obviously I was not comparing the two. If you refuse to see what I mean that's okay. I don't care.
 @SgtPepperSpray
 Because getting high and getting married are totally the same thing.
Â
The laws regarding marijuana are not discriminatory. They are applied equally, without regard to gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. Marriage laws are not. The practice of refusing to allow same sex couples to wed is clearly discriminatory, and a dieect violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. For reference, that would be the same little constitutional nugget that was cited in both Brown v. Board of Education and Loving v. Virginia.
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This is about civil rights, and last time I checked, nobody had declared intoxication a civil right. Marriage, on the other hand, has been declared a civil right by the SCOTUS.
Actually it is. Like it or not. The majority of this state and CO said that it should be legal to use marijuana and the minority (not a small group mind you)Â that is against it lost. Now the rest of the country needs to decide who will get their way and who will not. The American way.
Unfortunately this is the NEW norm for America. You read these post day in and day out and we've all become victums of some kind of discrimination. There is no respect for democracy anymore, it's my way or no way. I can see why the rest of the countries around the world have no respect for this country anymore.
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 @Attila Perhaps you are the one who wants to marry sheep or all these other people since conservatives are so worried about such things.
 @jd94b It's funny how conservatives always bring that up, as if it is always on their mind because it is one of their own urges.
 @Attila I really do not have a problem with same sex marriage. It was the statement by advocates that there are"about a thousand more rights" that will be fought for. I don't fear what is next, but just a bit apprehensive. I know that the definition is the same for the two, but it just seems less abrupt. Alright, Let the pummeling begin.....
@DTMD @Attila You might get pummeled, but sometimes the truth hurts.
 @Attila sounds like you have some issues there. maybe you need to talk to someone.