Iraq vet charged in fatal shooting of ex-SEAL, author
STEPHENVILLE, Texas (AP) - A 25-year-old Iraq war veteran charged with murdering former Navy SEAL and "American Sniper" author Chris Kyle and his friend turned a gun onto the pair while they were at a Texas shooting range, authorities said Sunday.
Eddie Ray Routh of Lancaster was arraigned early Sunday in the deaths of Kyle, 38, and Chad Littlefield, 35, at a shooting range at Rough Creek Lodge, about 50 miles southwest of Fort Worth. He was being held on one charge of capital murder and two charges of murder.
Capt. Jason Upshaw with the Erath County Sheriff's Office said Routh used a semi-automatic handgun, which authorities later found at his home. Upshaw said ballistics tests weren't complete Sunday, but authorities believe it was the gun used in the shootings. Upshaw declined to give any more details about the gun.
Routh has not made any comments indicating what his motive may have been, Upshaw said. Sheriff Tommy Bryant said Routh was unemployed and "may have been suffering from some type of mental illness from being in the military himself."
"I don't know that we'll ever know. He's the only one that knows that," Upshaw said.
Bryant didn't know if Routh was on any medication or whether the possible mental illness might be post-traumatic stress disorder.
The U.S. military confirmed Sunday that Routh was a corporal in the Marines, serving in active duty from 2006 to 2010. He was deployed to Iraq in 2007 and Haiti in 2010. His current duty status is listed as reserve.
Routh is being held on $3 million bond. Authorities did not know whether Routh had a lawyer yet.
Kyle, a decorated veteran, wrote the best-selling book, "American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History," detailing his 150-plus kills of insurgents from 1999 to 2009. Kyle said in his book that Iraqi insurgents had put a bounty on his head. According to promotional information from book publisher William Morrow, Kyle deployed to Iraq four times.
Bryant said Kyle, Littlefield and Routh went to the shooting range around 3:15 p.m. Saturday. A hunting guide at Rough Creek Lodge came across the bodies of Kyle and Littlefield around 5 p.m. and called 911.
Upshaw said autopsies were still pending and he could not say how many times the men were shot or where on their bodies they were hit.
After the shootings, Routh left the shooting range in Kyle's black pickup truck, Bryant said, first going to his sister's home in Midlothian, where he told her and her husband what he had done. Routh left, Bryant said, and the couple called local police.
Routh arrived at his home in Lancaster, about 17 miles southeast of Dallas, at about 8 p.m. Police arrested him after a brief pursuit.
Travis Cox, the director of a nonprofit Kyle helped found, told the Associated Press on Sunday that Kyle and Littlefield had taken Routh to the range. Littlefield was Kyle's neighbor and "workout buddy," Cox said.
"What I know is Chris and a gentleman - great guy, I knew him well, Chad Littlefield - took a veteran out shooting who was struggling with PTSD to try to assist him, try to help him, try to, you know, give him a helping hand and he turned the gun on both of them, killing them," Cox said.
A knock on the door at Routh's last known address went unanswered Sunday. A for-sale sign was in front of the small, wood-framed home.
Kyle's nonprofit, FITCO Cares, provides at-home fitness equipment for emotionally and physically wounded veterans.
"Chris was literally the type of guy if you were a veteran and needed help he'd help you," Cox said.
Cox described Littlefield as a gentle, kind-hearted man who often called or emailed him with ideas for events or fundraisers to help veterans. He said he was married and had children.
"It was just two great guys with Chad and Chris trying to help out a veteran in need and making time out of their day to help him. And to give him a hand. And unfortunately this thing happened," Cox said.
Bryant seemed to confirm that scenario. The sheriff said Routh's mother "may have reached out to Mr. Kyle to try to help her son."
"We kind of have an idea that maybe that's why they were at the range for some type of therapy that Mr. Kyle assists people with. And I don't know if it's called shooting therapy, I don't have any idea," Bryant said.
Lt. Cmdr. Rorke Denver, who served with Kyle on SEAL Team 3 in Iraq in 2006, called Kyle a champion of the modern battlefield. Denver wasn't surprised that Kyle apparently used a shooting range to help someone with PTSD.
"For us, for warriors, that's a skill set that has become very familiar, very comfortable for us," said Denver, a lieutenant commander in a reserve SEAL team. His book "Damn Few," about training SEALs, will be released this month. "So I actually see it as kind of a perfect use of Chris' unique skill set and expertise of which he has very few peers."
Craft International, Kyle's security training company, had scheduled a $2,950-per-person civilian training event at Rough Creek Lodge called the "Rough Creek Shoot Out!" for March 1-3. The price included lodging, meals and shooting instruction. Kyle was scheduled to teach the first class, called "precision rifle."
Kyle is survived by his wife, Taya, and their two children, Cox said.
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Sherman reported from McAllen, Texas. Associated Press writers Andale Gross and Erica Hunzinger in Chicago contributed to this report.
Eddie Ray Routh of Lancaster was arraigned early Sunday in the deaths of Kyle, 38, and Chad Littlefield, 35, at a shooting range at Rough Creek Lodge, about 50 miles southwest of Fort Worth. He was being held on one charge of capital murder and two charges of murder.
Capt. Jason Upshaw with the Erath County Sheriff's Office said Routh used a semi-automatic handgun, which authorities later found at his home. Upshaw said ballistics tests weren't complete Sunday, but authorities believe it was the gun used in the shootings. Upshaw declined to give any more details about the gun.
Routh has not made any comments indicating what his motive may have been, Upshaw said. Sheriff Tommy Bryant said Routh was unemployed and "may have been suffering from some type of mental illness from being in the military himself."
"I don't know that we'll ever know. He's the only one that knows that," Upshaw said.
Bryant didn't know if Routh was on any medication or whether the possible mental illness might be post-traumatic stress disorder.
The U.S. military confirmed Sunday that Routh was a corporal in the Marines, serving in active duty from 2006 to 2010. He was deployed to Iraq in 2007 and Haiti in 2010. His current duty status is listed as reserve.
Routh is being held on $3 million bond. Authorities did not know whether Routh had a lawyer yet.
Kyle, a decorated veteran, wrote the best-selling book, "American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History," detailing his 150-plus kills of insurgents from 1999 to 2009. Kyle said in his book that Iraqi insurgents had put a bounty on his head. According to promotional information from book publisher William Morrow, Kyle deployed to Iraq four times.
Bryant said Kyle, Littlefield and Routh went to the shooting range around 3:15 p.m. Saturday. A hunting guide at Rough Creek Lodge came across the bodies of Kyle and Littlefield around 5 p.m. and called 911.
Upshaw said autopsies were still pending and he could not say how many times the men were shot or where on their bodies they were hit.
After the shootings, Routh left the shooting range in Kyle's black pickup truck, Bryant said, first going to his sister's home in Midlothian, where he told her and her husband what he had done. Routh left, Bryant said, and the couple called local police.
Routh arrived at his home in Lancaster, about 17 miles southeast of Dallas, at about 8 p.m. Police arrested him after a brief pursuit.
Travis Cox, the director of a nonprofit Kyle helped found, told the Associated Press on Sunday that Kyle and Littlefield had taken Routh to the range. Littlefield was Kyle's neighbor and "workout buddy," Cox said.
"What I know is Chris and a gentleman - great guy, I knew him well, Chad Littlefield - took a veteran out shooting who was struggling with PTSD to try to assist him, try to help him, try to, you know, give him a helping hand and he turned the gun on both of them, killing them," Cox said.
A knock on the door at Routh's last known address went unanswered Sunday. A for-sale sign was in front of the small, wood-framed home.
Kyle's nonprofit, FITCO Cares, provides at-home fitness equipment for emotionally and physically wounded veterans.
"Chris was literally the type of guy if you were a veteran and needed help he'd help you," Cox said.
Cox described Littlefield as a gentle, kind-hearted man who often called or emailed him with ideas for events or fundraisers to help veterans. He said he was married and had children.
"It was just two great guys with Chad and Chris trying to help out a veteran in need and making time out of their day to help him. And to give him a hand. And unfortunately this thing happened," Cox said.
Bryant seemed to confirm that scenario. The sheriff said Routh's mother "may have reached out to Mr. Kyle to try to help her son."
"We kind of have an idea that maybe that's why they were at the range for some type of therapy that Mr. Kyle assists people with. And I don't know if it's called shooting therapy, I don't have any idea," Bryant said.
Lt. Cmdr. Rorke Denver, who served with Kyle on SEAL Team 3 in Iraq in 2006, called Kyle a champion of the modern battlefield. Denver wasn't surprised that Kyle apparently used a shooting range to help someone with PTSD.
"For us, for warriors, that's a skill set that has become very familiar, very comfortable for us," said Denver, a lieutenant commander in a reserve SEAL team. His book "Damn Few," about training SEALs, will be released this month. "So I actually see it as kind of a perfect use of Chris' unique skill set and expertise of which he has very few peers."
Craft International, Kyle's security training company, had scheduled a $2,950-per-person civilian training event at Rough Creek Lodge called the "Rough Creek Shoot Out!" for March 1-3. The price included lodging, meals and shooting instruction. Kyle was scheduled to teach the first class, called "precision rifle."
Kyle is survived by his wife, Taya, and their two children, Cox said.
___
Sherman reported from McAllen, Texas. Associated Press writers Andale Gross and Erica Hunzinger in Chicago contributed to this report.
And so it begins. For now, it's bastardizing our troops with PTSD as monsters undeserving of their rights, which they fought for. Next it will be that ALL military veterans regardless of whether they ever were in combat or not has PTSD, and therefore unworthy of their rights. NONE of this has a thing to do with crime. It has to do with Government Control. Period.Â
People with guns kill other people. Gun control is necessary to save lives.
 @Socialjusticeforall Well then, why not just ban people? Wouldn't that be better? After all, that gun can't shoot someone without a human hand controlling it and loading it....Â
 @Socialjusticeforall You're right, people with guns kill other people. So lets ban all guns, because then EVERYONE will turn in their guns and there will be no more killing. That's brilliant! Why didn't someone think of that before.Â
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Better yet, why don't we just let our balls drop and begin to enfore the laws we already have on the books. Oh, we can't -- because we don't want to hold anyone accountable for their actions.Â
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It is a known fact that MOST of the gun violence is perpetrated by seasoned criminals who obtained the gun illegally (oh, you mean not everyone buys their guns from a gun dealer and submits themselves to a criminal background check? duh!). Criminals who, had they been dealt with properly in the first place (ie, throwing the book at them at the onset of their life of crime), would have either learned their lesson or been in jail.Â
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The only part of Gun Control that does not work is the part where we actually punish those who break the law. So, let's try enforcing the laws we have instead of punishing the only people who will likely follow more obscure laws. Criminals are criminals becuase the break the law, so, they are likely not to follow any new laws. What part of that is so hard for the left to understand?
 @jlynnhood  @Socialjusticeforall "It is a known fact that MOST of the gun violence is perpetrated by seasoned criminals"
I would venture to say that many of the people in Chicago and Detroit would disagree with that statement - it seems that a high number of the shootings there involve young people in gangs who are hyped up with drugs and Adrenalin, the only "seasoning" being the chemicals they consume to deaden the fear.Â
 @OrcasThunder Well why didn't you say so...
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Young gang-bangers don't just roll out of the crib, grab a gun and do a drive-by. They aren't just accepted into a gang or offered the chance to join before they prove themselves with lesser cirmes. You have to prove your mettle before you are allowed to actually be initiated into a gang.Â
 @jlynnhood "Young gang members can be ,and often are, seasoned criminals."
I'm talking about the young recruits, who are likely the ones who are doing the drive by shootings, as part of the initiation.
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@orcasthunder: Young gang members can be ,and often are, seasoned criminals. If a pole were, in fact, taken of the people of Chicago, Detroit or any city where crime is rapant, I would bet they would agree with my statement.Â
Read this:Â http://www.ncpc.org/resources/files/pdf/prisons/recidivism-of-young-offenders.pdf
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And there are many, many more like it.Â
 @jlynnhood  @Socialjusticeforall "Better yet, why don't we just let our balls drop and begin to enfore the laws we already have on the books."
OK...can you provide a list of ALL of these unenforced laws you speak of?
 @OrcasThunder Not at all. Only people who admittedly don't "have a reason to learn or know about gun laws" - your words, not mine.Â
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Done wasting my time with you...
 @jlynnhood "Can you PROVE they won't?"
Given human nature, it is likely that a proportion of them have used he lack of inspection to slip under the radar.
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"I'm done going in circles with a person who, by their own adminsion, doesn't own a gun and doesn't have a reason to learn or know about gun laws."
Are you seriously saying that ONLY people who own guns are qualified to comment on gun laws?
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 @OrcasThunderÂ
"Can you PROVE that all of those un-inspected dealers will pass?"
Can you PROVE they won't?
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The link you provided only bolsters my point. There are WAY too many guns laws on the books already. Gun laws that have NOTHING to do with the operation or ownership of guns. Why would you want more? NONE of those laws would make any gun owner I know "scream".Â
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I'm done going in circles with a person who, by their own adminsion, doesn't own a gun and doesn't have a reason to learn or know about gun laws. "I do not own a gun, therefore I have no reason to be aware of gun laws, especially these rumored laws that are not enforced".Â
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How can you begin to argue a point about which you know little or nothing about. There again, this proves a point that many who back the anti-gun lobby are ill-informed and know almost ZERO about that which they support. Do some research! Heck, go to a gun range, take a class and shoot a few guns; handguns and rifles. You may even like it!Â
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Guns are inadament objects. They are no more than a paper weight until a PERSON puts his/her finger on the trigger. Through better defined and proper enforcement of the gun laws we already have, we can do better job of keeping the wrong person from pulling the tigger.Â
 @jlynnhood "What gun laws, if enforced, would eliminate a major number of licensed gun dealers?"
It's in the link you posted...
"Inspections help ensure that gun sellers abide by federal laws. But one report calls the inspections conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives "infrequent and of inconsistent quality" and says follow-ups and penalties have been sporadic.
A review of 100 cases found 23 percent with no record of any inspection. Another 22 percent were inspected only at the time they applied for a license, sometimes just by phone. And in 2002, there were only 4,581 compliance inspections covering a sliver of the nation's 104,000 dealers and others with licenses."
Can you PROVE that all of those un-inspected dealers will pass?
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"What gun laws would make us gun owners scream?"
Oh, there are bound to be some - that local LEO's don't bother with because they are silly...
For instance:
Did you know that in CA "you can have 2 guns that are almost identical and while one is ok the other is banned"? OR..."if you buy a receiver or a frame with no parts it has to be treated the same as an operating weapon."?
These are from
http://home.earthlink.net/~mhclary/Stupid%20Gun%20Laws.pdf
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 @OrcasThunder What gun laws, if enforced, would eliminate a major number of licensed gun dealers? Be more specific.
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What gun laws would make us gun owners scream?
 @jlynnhood "Ok, so I humored you; this is a start."
OK, that's a start...and what that says to me is that we need to eliminate a major number of the licensed gun dealers - the ones for which there was no inspection - and that would remove much of the gun crime problem...
Yeah, I'm "humored" by that...
You know, I agree that we need to enforce ALL gun laws - especially the ones that would make gun owners scream - because that I could say "Well, YOU asked for them!".
 @jlynnhood "You know what I am talking about"
Actually, I haven't a CLUE as to what you are talking about.
I do not own a gun, therefore I have no reason to be aware of gun laws, especially these rumored laws that are not enforced...I Google "Unenforced gun laws" and came up with a lot of mentions of "Unenforced gun laws", but no actual list. I did however come across one item that might explain WHY so many are unenforced - because Congress hasn't provided the funding for the ATF to actually DO the enforcing. Heck, the Republicans haven't even allowed the man nominated to head that agency to be confirmed yet...
 @OrcasThunder Ok, so I humored you; this is a start.Â
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2004/08/14/unenforced_gun_laws/
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It is a well known fact that we, as a nation, do a poor job of enforcing many of our guns laws, and if we did a better job, gun violence would be on a sharp decline.
You're welcome.
 @OrcasThunder Nope, the list is too long. You know what I am talking about, you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. Sorry, try someone else.
This man sacrificed more for this country than you libs will ever understand. We do not live in a perfect world. What he did was protect his fellow soldiers and prevent them from being killed. The bond you form with those you serve with are stronger than blood. They are your family. He said it best himself: âPeople tell me I saved hundreds and hundreds of people. But I have to tell you: itâs not the people you saved that you remember. Itâs the ones you couldnât save. Those are the ones you talk about. Those are the faces and situations that stay with you forever.â
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I ask, how many of you cowards hiding behind a keyboard have the intestinal fortitude to even try what this man and our members in uniform have done?Â
@JeepRexÂ
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I have no doubt he was trying to deal with his own demons, but don't give me a lecture on freedom and freedom fighters. There are over 150 families in Iraq still mourning the death or their sons because a bullet from a sniper killed them.  Wars are horrible and unjustified wars are criminal.  George W Bush and Condi Rice should be tried for treason. So, take your high road somewhere else, because I am telling my family a different story.  Â
 @JeepRex Let's give the name calling a rest, JR. No, I have never sighted a high powered rifle on some stranger from the safety of 1.2 miles away and blown his head off. A stranger whose tattered third world country I invaded along with the greatest military on the planet and without justification. By the way, when a country attacks and invades another country without justification, that's a war crime. Germans were hanged for that after WWII.
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I don't doubt that Kyle saved the lives of some of his fellow invaders, nor do I doubt that he killed at least 160 people who lived in the land the US illegally invaded.
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But I'm not going to depend on you, JR, to tell me who's a coward and who's a hero. I just don't trust your judgement in the matter.
 @Jeff How many did Paul Tibbets kill? He wrote all about it too.
 @Jeff Your entire post, above, is sensational blubber. Your statement, "..on some stranger from the safety of 1.2 miles away" is trash and you know it! All of it is trash. Who are you? You sit at a computer, google search any left-wing internet posting that supports your point of view and cut and paste as if it were gospel. You try to make Kyle , and all others who went over seas, out to be some war-mongering cowards. You make me sick!Â
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Bush and his administration didn't wake up one day and say, "hey, lets go to war for the hell of it".  US and Britsh forces went to Iraq looking for WMD's based on intellegence they had. Maybe WMD's were not found in the amounts that were believed, but there were some found:http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/us_did_find_iraq_wmd_AYiLgNbw7pDf7AZ3RO9qnM
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http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/Iraq3Chap2.pdf
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Iraq and Saddam Hussein aren't "innocents" as you will try to lead people to believe. The fact is, there was a lot of evidence pointing to Iraq having WMD's and the capability and desire to produce WMD's. Based on Iraq's history, the US, British and other nations decided it was worth investigating. Iraq was less than cooperative in their efforts....lending to more suspicion.
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Would you rather we turned a blind, ignored Iraq's history and let them continue on wiith preparing, storing and eventually using WMD's and nukes on their neighbors and potentially us?
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 @Jeff  @JeepRex I am with you Jeff.From an Army vet.
That's just so tragic in so many ways. Two kids and a wife just lost daddy and husband, and America lost a war hero.
Good grief! Let me make a few points that the anit-gun folks may be able to wrap their heads around:
1. Chris Kyle is a hero. End of story! He didn't kill or "murder" "innocents" and he didn't revel in those he killed. He killed those who were preparing to do harm to American soldiers. Soldiers who were fighting for the ultra-comfortable way of life we live in the U.S.
2. Routh had PTSD. PTSD is NOT an automatic diagnosis of mental illness.
3. Just because they were at a gun range does not mean Kyle was armed at the exact time he was killed (he probably was, but we don't know that for sure). Heck, he could have been cleaning his gun for all we know and Routh surprised him. We don't know, and we should assume anything. The only thing we know for sure from the article is that Routh shot and killed Kyle and his friend. Nothing more! Yet, so many of anti-gun folks are jumping up and down making, making assumptions.
4. Any jack-ass (yeah, that's you albion) who "plays" with a gun is just that, a jack-ass. Guns should be respected, not played with.  By your post, I hardly think you have grown up.
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So, to the anti-gun lobby here; keep spouting off as it is your right as defined in our constitution. A constitution won and protected by the likes of Chris Kyle. If not for folks like him, we wouldn't have this opportunity - remember that.
So, I did my homework and true PTSD is a mental illness and should be treated as such. However, it has not been confirmed that Routh had been medically diagnosed as having PTSD (at least not from what I have read). In fact, I even stated he had PTSD, but that isn't confirmed as far as I know.
 @jlynnhood "However, it has not been confirmed that Routh had been medically diagnosed as having PTSD (at least not from what I have read)."
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that is some BS logic, and you probably know.Â
The guy who was killed knew the other guy was having problems.  He took him to the gun range to help him deal with these problems.  Â
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Who in their right mind takes someone to the gun range to cheer them up? WTH is wrong with people? Â
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To your question below, that is what a gun nut is.   Someone who is too stupid to know better than to take their friend who is having issues to a gun range.Â
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 @T H I S So, now you're a psychologist? You know what works for all people with PTSD?
 @jlynnhood Kyle is not a hero by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, but you should watch his campaign ad from last year to help put Kyle's military service in perspective:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY
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Campaign ad? Please....that doesn't do anything to put Kyle's military service into perspective. Ron Paul wants to all but elliminate our military, so it means nothing to me. That ad has zero substance and means less than zero to me.
 @Jeff Your disgust is aimed entirely at the wrong individuals. You can be upset with the Administration, but not the persons that sign up to protect your freedom of speech. War crimes and Kyle should never be placed in the same sentence. Only following orders? Exterminating thousands in concentration camps being compared to one single individual? Congrats... you now have lost ALL credibility. Why don't thank a Veteran instead of trashing them. Andrew Bush... is that you?
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 @d_2 Of course Iraq is not Kyle's fault. It's the fault of George Bush and those in Congress who voted for Bush's Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq, which includes our our own Senator Maria Cantwell. But it's a volunteer military, isn't it? Kyle wasn't drafted. He chose to do what he did.
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The "only following orders" excuse did not fly at the Nuremberg trials of the Nazis. Why should it fly here?
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Had the US not illegally invaded Iraq, our military personnel there would not have needed defending from Iraqi insurgents. Or Iraqi patriots, depending which side you're on. Watch the Ron Paul ad I linked to above if you're confused by that statement.
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Defending this nation is one thing. Throwing all of our military might at some Third World country on trumped up charges of WMDs is another thing. In fact it's a war crime. Yes, Kyle was only following orders, but war crimes happen only because everybody is following orders.
 @Jeff Hey... Jeff, why don't you describe to me how Iraq is explicitly Kyle's fault?  He was only following orders.  Defending military personnel from Iraqi Insurgents and other jihad whacko's.   You can go ahead and disagree with the mission.  But, you should never ever level it against those who have volunteered to defend this great Nation.
@jlynnhoodIraq was in "complete disarray" because we overthrew their government. What for? A search for non-existent weapons of mass destruction.
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Invading another country that has not attacked yours and does not pose an immediate threat of attack is a war crime. Period.
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The unnecessary and illegal US invasion of Iraq cost the lives of over 650,000 innocent Iraqis. There's no way to paint that as a noble cause.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties
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@jeff That ad says we are an invading army, terrorizing their country; again, it is a campaign ad. Sorry, but I take campaign ads with a huge grain of salt. It's propaganda. Â
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Kyle served from 1999-2009, during the height of the war. Those he did kill were insurgents, trying to do harm to his fellow soldiers, not innocents. At the time Kyle was there, Iraq was in complete disarray and depending on who you talk to, they (the Iraqis) welcomed us there.Â
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I agree that the people who Kyle killed diidn't want us there. After all, they were a regime who fought against a peaceful Iraq and wanted to harbor terrorist organizations. Anyway, this debate about our business in Iraq could go on and on. My point is, Kyle was there to protect his fellow soldiers. A job which he did well and with extreme pride.
 @jlynnhood The Ron Paul ad gives you a chance to see Kyle as those he killed saw him. As part of an invading army that is terrorizing their country. What would you do if the situation were reversed, as in the ad?
If America's most murderous sniper isn't safe shooting off a few rounds with his unhinged military pals on a Texas gun range, what is this world coming to?
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So, I guess if I buy a gun and take a day or two training in gun defense I'll be as safe as this man was?
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Two more victims of the second amendment (well, really three).
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How many more deaths before we finally put the last nail in the coffin of unreasonable gun rights?
Typical liberal. Freedom comes at a cost and a price. These men paid the ultimate price for that freedom. Its something a liberal like you would never understand
 @rushrules "Freedom comes at a cost and a price. These men paid the ultimate price for that freedom."
Would that include the 349 military members who committed suicide in 2012? Is THAT a fair price for them to pay?
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"Freedom comes at a cost and a price." - is THAT what the military dead are to you, expendable coins to be written off? Simply marked down in a ledger sheet under "Account paid"? These are people, with families, friends, neighbors. They deserve a lot more from us than "OK, sorry buddy, but that's the price we need to pay"...
That's one of my biggest reasons for not liking the all volunteer military - it leaves the payment of that "price" to the gung ho, or the young people in this economy who see no other options for getting a job, going to school, getting out of poverty. And the rest of the world can get on with life, leave the mud and the blood to the few...You talk of the "price to be paid", but it's someone else who is paying it...
 @rushrules There is freedom but there is also accountability.
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Something YOU don't understand.
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I guess you're all for releasing any criminal who waits more than 60 days for trial in your "purist" definition of the Constitution.
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I'm sure you are also equally against "no protest zones" and permitting to require protest, since the First Amendment protects the gathering of assembly and no where does it say, "with a permit."
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So I'm sure you completely approve of Seattle hippies gathering in Westlake without a permit and protesting against guns - right.
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Because you love the Constitution that much. Right.
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You are also against the Patriot Act and Patriot Act and things like indefinite detention (violates the 6th Amendment), warrantless wire tapping (violates the 4th amendment) and secret evidence without cross examination (violates the 5th amendment).
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I'm sure you are also against DOMA because in principal, DOMA violates the 10th Amendment by stripping the states of their right to define marriage - because the rights of the states and the people to make their own decisions on the "obvious' so to speak is protected by the Ninth Amendment.
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So which is it - do you love your country that much that you'll come out against Patriot Act I and II as unconstitutional - or do you really approve of the NSA spying on all citizens including you, by admittedly filtering all internet traffic. (bomb, terrorism, chemical weapons, attack, hello NSA enjoy reading this post now). Do you agree that DOMA is unconstitutional because it oversteps states rights to make their own decisions? Do you agree that permitting and no protest zones completely violate the 1st Amendment.
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Lets here it. Because if you're guns good because the Constitution tells me so, and Patriot Act good because I hate them Muslim terrorists (hello NSA again) who are out to destroy us with terrorist tactics then you sir - are a flag wrapped hypocrite.
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Howard Beale
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Pretty darn strict in my view of the Constitution, agreeing with Scalia, former gun owner, and Patriot who is against protest free zones, permitting requirements for protest assembly, the Patriot Act, Patriot Act II, DOMA and although pro-choice, feels that Roe V. Wade violates states rights also.
 @rushrules Blah, blah, freedom, blah, blah.
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There is no freedom without responsibility... therefore, responsible gun laws will be the result when grown ups can finally pass grown up gun laws.
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Don't get me wrong, I played with guns when I was an adolescent too. They were lots of fun; but then I grew up.
Well, if only he had a gun and some training this wouldn't have...
Men need to find safer ways to help each other, and bond and be manly. Paintball shooting would have been as effective for this kind bonding help. They could go to an electronic golf course and take some swings in front of a screen. Can do skeet shooting the same way with no damage done. Nobody dead by accident or on purpose, and no former Marine arrested for capital murder.
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If you mess with guns and get shot, what's the surprise? Race drivers die in car crashes. Kyle could have been killed in an auto accident too. Still he was the same former SEAL with a distinguished military record.
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Fact is, gun-worshipers cannot get their tiny mind that guns ALWAYS make you unsafe, even when they help you live through a battle. You're in danger of being shot by the enemy, by your friends, and by yourself. That can happen during the battle and after too. Further, if you're unable to stay in complete control of your weapon, you're considered inept - once the wrong hands get it. You can't leave it on the table with your keys and phone. Guns never make you safe. Never.
Tell that to the thousands who have saved themselves, family, friends and strangers by confronting and/or shooting a person who wished them harm.Â
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I don't think its the "gun-worshipers" who have the tiny minds here.
 @jlynnhood "Tell that to the thousands who have saved themselves, family, friends and strangers by confronting and/or shooting a person who wished them harm."
I've read some of your posts - and usually I would just ignored any in the future. But could you please explain WTF you are trying to say here?
You talk of "heroes", but do you have a clue of what that means? Were these 2 men heroes? Perhaps. Is ANYONE who kills in self defense a "hero"? I doubt that - if they did something stupid like following someone to see what they are up to, then get jumped when they are running away, I'd say absolutely not. Many who shoot someone do so because they "think" the other person is a threat, when there is no such threat but they have the gun so they feel a need to be a "man" and defend themselves. In fact, if this shooter does have PTSD, he may actually have thought he was in danger, may have "defended" himself in the way he was taught...by your definition, HE would be the hero here, at least in his own mind.
But I have to ask - when someone takes a person who is known to be troubled, in part because of having been in a war and being shot at, to a gun range...is that really the act of a "hero"?
Rule number one: when you have someone who is known to be under stress and liable to act out in imagined self defense, you do not hand them the one item that can make defense into aggression, the one tool that is supposed to make us all equal...
 @OrcasThunder Oh, ok....
 @jlynnhood "So you agree with me, very well then."
I would suggest that you reread my post - I "agree" ONLY in that people who do acts of valor BY CHOICE can be showing courage...but I have known some in the military who did them because they WANTED to be "heroes", who did it for the "glory"...even a few who were disappointed that they survived combat - because that wasn't the "heroes path".
So, no - you misread my words.
 @jlynnhood "the definition I posted was from dictionary.com"
Than please provide the source with the quote.
 @OrcasThunder  So you agree with me, very well then.Â
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BTW, the definition I posted was from dictionary.com. It was the first provided definition of the word. It is only "sexist" if you make it so. Any forward thinking individual should be able to see through that and take it for what is and not make it something that it is not.
 @jlynnhood " HERO: a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities."
Disregarding the sexism embedded in that statement, it is also a bit too generalized for my experience.
I don't question the bravery of these people. Frankly anyone who RETURNS to combat after the first contact with terror is a hero in my book. But I also am aware that those like Kyle are specifically chosen and trained to do the work they do - it is their job. So, they put themselves in those positions deliberately, doing their jobs. Just as those who choose to fight fires or enforce the laws or the volunteer mountain rescue personnel who take significant risks to rescue stranded or injured climbers or hikers. All of these are Heroes in my view.
But to me, the true heroes in my life are those who in their everyday lives fight hunger, poverty, ignorance and bigotry...and illness of all kinds. Those who are fighting, those who have survived, and those who fought and lost their individual battles with illnesses such as cancer. My Heroes are those like my wife, who lost her fight, and my Grandson, who won his. They did not choose that fight, but they did not run from it either, I can respect what those like Kyle did, and the impact they have, but I can't idolize them for having done what was, after all, their job.
"Tell that to the thousands who have saved themselves, family, friends and strangers by confronting and/or shooting a person who wished them harm."   was in reference to this post:  "gun-worshipers cannot get their tiny mind that guns ALWAYS make you unsafe".  "Guns never make you safe. Never." Not too hard to understand....
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 HERO: a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities. So yes, I do have a grasp on what a hero is and what the term means and by this definition, Kyle was a hero. I don't recall saying ANYONE who kills is self defense is a hero. If I did, please point it out to me.
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As you said, "Many who shoot someone do so because they "think" the other person is a threat, when there is no such threat but they have the gun so they feel a need to be a "man" and defend themselves". Define "many".  I'm sure it happens on occasion, and I wouldn't call that self defense. Â
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SELF DEFENSE:Â Â Â the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant .Â
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So, your above statement does not come close to this defintion.  It is more akin to the acts of a vigilante, as defined here: "any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime', to which I am NOT a supporter.
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I am not going to "Monday morning quarterback" Kyle's decision to take Routh to the range. The fact is, he was trying to help the guy. As it turns out, it was the wrong decision and he and his friend paid for it with their lives. A severe tragedy none the less. Â
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I won't lose sleep over the fact that you may not read my future posts, in fact, I expect you NOT to because now you know that we don't share the same opinion on most things. I am mature enough to appreciate the differences we all have (opinions and others). I can look past that and engage in a debate and am not angered by an opposing opinion. Some folks (maybe you, I don't know because I don't know you personally) are enraged by the fact that anyone would have a differing opinion than them and can't clear their heads enough to be open minded to that opinion.Â
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I am not always right and I make some mistakes, but when I do, I admit to it and move on. I wish we could all step off our self-righteous pedestals on occasion, but I digress....