2 funerals begin a sad procession in Connecticut
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NEWTOWN, Conn. (AP) - Opening a long and almost unbearable procession of grief, Newtown began burying its dead Monday, laying to rest two 6-year-old boys - one who was crazy about the New York Giants and one whose twin sister survived the rampage.
Two funeral homes filled with mourners for Noah Pozner and Jack Pinto, the first of the 20 children killed in last week's school massacre to receive funerals. The gunman also killed six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary, and his mother in her home, before committing suicide.
A rabbi presided at Noah's service, and in keeping with Jewish tradition, the boy was laid to rest in a simple brown wooden casket with a Star of David on it.
"If Noah had not been taken from us, he would have become a great man. He would been a wonderful husband and a loving father," Noah's uncle, Alexis Haller, told mourners, according to remarks he provided to The Associated Press. Both services were closed to the news media.
Noah's twin, Arielle, who was assigned to a different classroom, survived the killing frenzy by 20-year-old Adam Lanza, an attack so horrifying that authorities could not say three days later whether the school would ever reopen.
Newtown, a community of 27,000 people, will face many more funerals over the next few days, just as other towns are getting ready for the holidays.
"I feel like we have to get back to normal, but I don't know if there is normal anymore," said Kim Camputo, mother of two children, 5 and 10, who attend a different school. "I'll definitely be dropping them off and picking them up myself for a while."
Beyond Newtown, parents nervously sent their children back to class in a country deeply shaken by the attack, and in a measure of how the tragedy has put people on edge, schools were locked down in at least four places.
As investigators worked to figure out what drove Lanza to lash out with such fury - and why he singled out the school - federal agents said he had fired guns at shooting ranges over the past several years but there was no evidence he did so recently as practice for the rampage.
At Jack's Christian service, hymns rang out from inside the funeral home, where the boy lay in an open casket. Jack was among the youngest members of a youth wrestling association in Newtown, and dozens of little boys turned up at the service in gray Newtown Wrestling T-shirts.
Ten-year-old Luke Wellman remembered a boy who loved football and wrestling and worshipped Victor Cruz, the star wide receiver for the Giants. Cruz played in Sunday's game with "Jack Pinto 'My Hero'" written on one of his cleats.
Luke said: "I'm here to support my teammate and friend."
The funeral program bore a quotation from the Book of Revelation: "God shall wipe away all tears. There shall be no more death. Neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain."
A mourner, Gwendolyn Glover, said the service carried a message of comfort and protection, particularly for other children. "The message was: You're secure now. The worst is over," she said.
At Noah's funeral, his uncle described a smart, funny and mischievous child who loved animals and Mario Brothers video games and liked to joke that he worked in a taco factory.
"It is unspeakably tragic that none of us can bring Noah back," Haller said. "We would go to the ends of the earth to do so, but none of us can. What we can do is carry Noah within us, always. We can remember the joy he brought to us. We can hold his memory close to our hearts. We can treasure him forever."
At both funeral homes, as around the country, people wrestled with what steps could and should be taken to prevent something like the massacre from happening again.
"If people want to go hunting, a single-shot rifle does the job, and that does the job to protect your home, too. If you need more than that, I don't know what to say," Ray DiStephan said outside Noah's funeral.
He added: "I don't want to see my kids go to schools that become maximum-security fortresses. That's not the world I want to live in, and that's not the world I want to raise them in."
Around the country, school systems asked police departments to increase patrols Monday and sent messages to parents outlining safety procedures. Teachers steeled themselves for their students' questions and fears.
Richard Cantlupe, an American history teacher at Westglades Middle School in Parkland, Fla., described the Connecticut rampage as "our 9/11 for schoolteachers."
Anxiety ran high enough in Ridgefield, Conn., about 20 miles from Newtown, that officials ordered a lockdown at schools after a person deemed suspicious was seen at a train station. Two schools were locked down in South Burlington, Vt., because of an unspecified threat.
Three schools in the Tampa, Fla., area did the same after a bullet was found on the floor of a school bus, and a New Hampshire high school went into emergency mode after an administrator heard a loud bang. A police search found nothing suspicious.
Meanwhile, the outlines of a national debate on gun control began to take shape. At the White House, spokesman Jay Carney said curbing gun violence is a complex problem that will require a "comprehensive solution."
Carney did not offer specific proposals or a timeline. He said President Barack Obama will meet with law enforcement officials and mental health professionals in coming weeks.
Lanza is believed to have used a Bushmaster AR-15-style rifle, a civilian version of the military's M-16. It is similar to the weapon used in a recent shopping mall shooting in Oregon and other deadly attacks around the U.S. Versions of the AR-15 were outlawed in this country under the 1994 assault weapons ban, but the law expired in 2004.
At least one senator, Democrat Mark Warner of Virginia, said Monday that the attack in Newtown has led him to rethink his opposition to the ban on assault weapons.
West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, a Democrat who is an avid hunter and lifelong member of the National Rifle Association, said it is time to move beyond the political rhetoric and begin an honest discussion about reasonable restrictions on guns.
He added: "This is bigger than just about guns. It's about how we treat people with mental illness, how we intervene, how we get them the care they need, how we protect our schools. It's just so sad."
Authorities say Lanza shot his mother, Nancy Lanza, at their home and then took her car and some of her guns to the school, where he broke in and opened fire. A Connecticut official said the mother, a gun enthusiast who practiced at shooting ranges, was found dead in her pajamas in bed, shot four times in the head with a .22-caliber rifle.
Lanza was wearing all black, with an olive-drag utility vest with lots of pockets, during the attack.
Investigators have found no letters or diaries that could explain the rampage.
Debora Seifert, a spokeswoman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said both Lanza and his mother fired at shooting ranges, and also visited ranges together. "We do not have any indication at this time that the shooter engaged in shooting activities in the past six months," Seifert told the AP.
In Newtown, classes were canceled Monday, and the town's other schools were to reopen Tuesday. The district made plans to send surviving Sandy Hook students to a former middle school in the neighboring town of Monroe.
Sandy Hook desks are being taken to the Chalk Hill school in Monroe, empty since town schools consolidated last year, and tradesmen are donating their services to get the school ready within a matter of days.
"These are innocent children that need to be put on the right path again," Monroe police Lt. Brian McCauley said.
With Sandy Hook Elementary still designated a crime scene, state police Lt. Paul Vance said it could be months before police turn the school back over to the district. The people of Newtown were not ready to address its future.
"We're just now getting ready to talk to our son about who was killed," said Robert Licata, the father of a student who escaped harm during the shooting. "He's not even there yet."
___
Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers John Christoffersen, Ben Feller, Adam Geller, Jim Kuhnhenn and Michael Melia in Newtown; David Collins in Hartford, Conn.; Brian Skoloff in Phoenix; and Anne Flaherty in Washington.
Two funeral homes filled with mourners for Noah Pozner and Jack Pinto, the first of the 20 children killed in last week's school massacre to receive funerals. The gunman also killed six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary, and his mother in her home, before committing suicide.
A rabbi presided at Noah's service, and in keeping with Jewish tradition, the boy was laid to rest in a simple brown wooden casket with a Star of David on it.
"If Noah had not been taken from us, he would have become a great man. He would been a wonderful husband and a loving father," Noah's uncle, Alexis Haller, told mourners, according to remarks he provided to The Associated Press. Both services were closed to the news media.
Noah's twin, Arielle, who was assigned to a different classroom, survived the killing frenzy by 20-year-old Adam Lanza, an attack so horrifying that authorities could not say three days later whether the school would ever reopen.
Newtown, a community of 27,000 people, will face many more funerals over the next few days, just as other towns are getting ready for the holidays.
"I feel like we have to get back to normal, but I don't know if there is normal anymore," said Kim Camputo, mother of two children, 5 and 10, who attend a different school. "I'll definitely be dropping them off and picking them up myself for a while."
Beyond Newtown, parents nervously sent their children back to class in a country deeply shaken by the attack, and in a measure of how the tragedy has put people on edge, schools were locked down in at least four places.
As investigators worked to figure out what drove Lanza to lash out with such fury - and why he singled out the school - federal agents said he had fired guns at shooting ranges over the past several years but there was no evidence he did so recently as practice for the rampage.
At Jack's Christian service, hymns rang out from inside the funeral home, where the boy lay in an open casket. Jack was among the youngest members of a youth wrestling association in Newtown, and dozens of little boys turned up at the service in gray Newtown Wrestling T-shirts.
Ten-year-old Luke Wellman remembered a boy who loved football and wrestling and worshipped Victor Cruz, the star wide receiver for the Giants. Cruz played in Sunday's game with "Jack Pinto 'My Hero'" written on one of his cleats.
Luke said: "I'm here to support my teammate and friend."
The funeral program bore a quotation from the Book of Revelation: "God shall wipe away all tears. There shall be no more death. Neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain."
A mourner, Gwendolyn Glover, said the service carried a message of comfort and protection, particularly for other children. "The message was: You're secure now. The worst is over," she said.
At Noah's funeral, his uncle described a smart, funny and mischievous child who loved animals and Mario Brothers video games and liked to joke that he worked in a taco factory.
"It is unspeakably tragic that none of us can bring Noah back," Haller said. "We would go to the ends of the earth to do so, but none of us can. What we can do is carry Noah within us, always. We can remember the joy he brought to us. We can hold his memory close to our hearts. We can treasure him forever."
At both funeral homes, as around the country, people wrestled with what steps could and should be taken to prevent something like the massacre from happening again.
"If people want to go hunting, a single-shot rifle does the job, and that does the job to protect your home, too. If you need more than that, I don't know what to say," Ray DiStephan said outside Noah's funeral.
He added: "I don't want to see my kids go to schools that become maximum-security fortresses. That's not the world I want to live in, and that's not the world I want to raise them in."
Around the country, school systems asked police departments to increase patrols Monday and sent messages to parents outlining safety procedures. Teachers steeled themselves for their students' questions and fears.
Richard Cantlupe, an American history teacher at Westglades Middle School in Parkland, Fla., described the Connecticut rampage as "our 9/11 for schoolteachers."
Anxiety ran high enough in Ridgefield, Conn., about 20 miles from Newtown, that officials ordered a lockdown at schools after a person deemed suspicious was seen at a train station. Two schools were locked down in South Burlington, Vt., because of an unspecified threat.
Three schools in the Tampa, Fla., area did the same after a bullet was found on the floor of a school bus, and a New Hampshire high school went into emergency mode after an administrator heard a loud bang. A police search found nothing suspicious.
Meanwhile, the outlines of a national debate on gun control began to take shape. At the White House, spokesman Jay Carney said curbing gun violence is a complex problem that will require a "comprehensive solution."
Carney did not offer specific proposals or a timeline. He said President Barack Obama will meet with law enforcement officials and mental health professionals in coming weeks.
Lanza is believed to have used a Bushmaster AR-15-style rifle, a civilian version of the military's M-16. It is similar to the weapon used in a recent shopping mall shooting in Oregon and other deadly attacks around the U.S. Versions of the AR-15 were outlawed in this country under the 1994 assault weapons ban, but the law expired in 2004.
At least one senator, Democrat Mark Warner of Virginia, said Monday that the attack in Newtown has led him to rethink his opposition to the ban on assault weapons.
West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, a Democrat who is an avid hunter and lifelong member of the National Rifle Association, said it is time to move beyond the political rhetoric and begin an honest discussion about reasonable restrictions on guns.
He added: "This is bigger than just about guns. It's about how we treat people with mental illness, how we intervene, how we get them the care they need, how we protect our schools. It's just so sad."
Authorities say Lanza shot his mother, Nancy Lanza, at their home and then took her car and some of her guns to the school, where he broke in and opened fire. A Connecticut official said the mother, a gun enthusiast who practiced at shooting ranges, was found dead in her pajamas in bed, shot four times in the head with a .22-caliber rifle.
Lanza was wearing all black, with an olive-drag utility vest with lots of pockets, during the attack.
Investigators have found no letters or diaries that could explain the rampage.
Debora Seifert, a spokeswoman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said both Lanza and his mother fired at shooting ranges, and also visited ranges together. "We do not have any indication at this time that the shooter engaged in shooting activities in the past six months," Seifert told the AP.
In Newtown, classes were canceled Monday, and the town's other schools were to reopen Tuesday. The district made plans to send surviving Sandy Hook students to a former middle school in the neighboring town of Monroe.
Sandy Hook desks are being taken to the Chalk Hill school in Monroe, empty since town schools consolidated last year, and tradesmen are donating their services to get the school ready within a matter of days.
"These are innocent children that need to be put on the right path again," Monroe police Lt. Brian McCauley said.
With Sandy Hook Elementary still designated a crime scene, state police Lt. Paul Vance said it could be months before police turn the school back over to the district. The people of Newtown were not ready to address its future.
"We're just now getting ready to talk to our son about who was killed," said Robert Licata, the father of a student who escaped harm during the shooting. "He's not even there yet."
___
Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers John Christoffersen, Ben Feller, Adam Geller, Jim Kuhnhenn and Michael Melia in Newtown; David Collins in Hartford, Conn.; Brian Skoloff in Phoenix; and Anne Flaherty in Washington.
I resent that it is being said that because this shooter was "Asbergers", that he was severely mentally ill. Asbergers is high functioning autistic and I am a fully functioning citizen who haqs worked for 44 yrs as a nurse and raised three children by myself. Newscasters should know what they are talking about before they open their mouth!!!
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The news media needs to stop sensationalizing this horrible event and let them grieve in peace. Don't show that twisted kid's face again. Oh and Parents please start being parents and get involved with your kids lives!
Some idiot left a bullet on a bus that services my kid's school, and they spent most of the day in lockdown.
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Kid claimed he found the bullet in the parking lot of his apartment and "it must of fell out of his pocket".
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Right.
Why does the news keep reporting that he used an Assault Rifle to kill all these people? He used two semi automatic pistols! But we keep reading certain news sites saying he used an AR-15? We have some serious skewed, one sided, reporting going on here.
 @Cola-KC different versions of media reports - .223 is what the coroner found. It does not really matter whether the assault was carried out with an AR or pistols. Short range they are equally deadly. Remember VT? Which is why the attention and focus on ARs is misguided, or dishonest depending on how much you know. If you want to ban these 2 types, it's going to be revolvers and hunting rifles only.Â
 @Cola-KC Its over, 20 dead kids trump your NRA Kool Aid. They are killing machines no matter what you call them and no one in this society "needs" to be in possession of one.Â
 @Cola-KC Because the coroner--you know, the one who removed up to 11 bullets out of each victim, said they were rifle rounds.  All of them.  So they were shot with .223 from the Bushmaster.
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Use google before you complain in the future.
This has shaken the entire nation; not just Newtown, not just Connecticut. Personally, it affected me even more deeply than 9-11. It's just too much; too close to the bone.
 @ladylib1 Its really worse than this. Its been a while since I read about it but when we invaded Iraq we found blueprints to school buildings in the US and correspondence between terrorists that showed that they knew that if they hit schools they would have a large phycological impact. Schools are in the crosshairs of people even more sick than the CT creep.
 @SeattleJoe  @ladylib1 I remember that very well.  After I heard that, I never dropped my kids off at their elementary school without inwardly saying a little prayer, "Let them be safe."  For months, I was never truly at ease while they were in class.  Now, a disaffected lunatic has shown the world just how easy it is to attack the most vulnerable among us - and how to hit us in our collective gut by attacking what we hold most dear, an example I am very afraid others will follow.
Once again, we, and the media as a whole, are not being honest with ourselves.Â
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Ours is a gun culture. We know that the mother had her own arsenal of weapons, including the AR 15 assault rifle used to kill all these people. They were HER guns. She raised her son in a household that embraced the gun culture and glorified it.Â
 @lakeview " She raised her son in a household that embraced the gun culture and glorified it. "  I haven't seen any documentation to support this at all. So far all we know is that the guns were hers.  The embraced and glorified gun culture things is your purposeful attempt at skewing the situation. It could very well have been true but I have yet to see any evidence supporting it.
 @SeattleJoe  @lakeview Multiple articles talk about her taking her son to the range and teaching him gun safety.  She was exactly the kind of "law abiding and responsible gun owner" that she should have been, yet, she was shot four times in the face with her own guns.  By her son.
 @T H I S The problem is I understand causality and correlation all too well. There is correlation but no causality. The guns did not cause anything, and could not cause anything. The cause was the kids mental state. The correlation was availability of weapons to manner of death. Had there been no guns she would not have died by her own gun (sure he may have obtained one elsewhere, and I suppose probably like so)but she would still be dead as he would have used any one of the many weapons in the house.Â
In a way you can even argue your "enabling a mass murder" point but only in means and not result. There are a number of means for killing large numbers of people so in this case it was a firearm but if he wanted he could have done it any number of ways.Â
 @SeattleJoe no, but the fact that she had guns readily available, and showe him how to use them made it a whole lot easier to cause a lot of damage when he did snap.
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just because you can not handle the causality and correlation at play, does not mean it is not there.
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And again, we have a law bidding gun owner who was not only killed with their own weapon, but became an enabler for a mass murderer.Â
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 @SeattleJoe  @lakeview Yeah, can I get a study to help?  On one side we have Kleck--debunked, and Lott, debunked for "losing" his research.  On the other, we have lobbyist blocked gobbledy gook.
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This is not a simple problem. Â Reasonable people need to dig deeper and dig hard. Â If I buy too many boxes of Sudafed, there is now a uniform registry to flag me. Â One shoe bomber, and now all over the nation we have to take our shoes off at the airport. Â This many mass shootings (and yes, I realize there are a number of fatal problems and I'm not afraid to address each and every one), and we only get arguments from the extremes on both sides who parrot bumper stickers.
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And BTW, I have owned a number of guns and at one time had a concealed carry permit in this state. Â You'd be surprised how many liberals haunted the tactical shooters tournaments. Â And won.
 @TehHawt  @lakeview I commend her for that and am sad her mentally ill son killed her. The fact she taught him gun safety has no bering on whether or not he eventually snapped and killed her. You need to look up causality, correlation and other related statistical factors.Â
 @lakeview You might want to check your facts. The weapons used were handguns.
 @dB  @lakeview Nope. He used a rifle and handguns,and had another rifle in the car. She stockpiled weapons and supplies, and ammo. She was a glenn beck type, thinking that the economy would collapse and people would attack her because she's rich.  Sad but true.  And she had her son practicing with the weapons, as well.  You can easily google what the coroner said about the bullets, and how they got there.  Your denial is just pathetic. Â
 @dB  @lakeview Check your own facts.  The coroner said all the rounds he removed from the victims were rifle rounds.
 @dB  @lakeview I keep seeing conflicting reports, some say the AR was in his car and he used the 9mm's other say he used the AR.
 @DarkParty  @dB  @lakeview They later corrected and said the Bushmaster was NOT found in the car, but next to the shooter's body.  Additionally, the coroner reported all victims were shot with rifle rounds.
these deaths are simply the price we must pay for freedoms...
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/how gun nuts view the isssue
 @T H I S And the anti gun nuts want to ban all guns so law abiding citizens cannot protect themselves.
 @dB  You need a HOW many rounds of ammo to "protect" yourself??  Seriously. I know that this stuff is like  that paranoia thing. But that "defense" argument is ridiculous.  Other countries allow ONE gun, that you must load and not have a huge magazine, or automatic mechanisms, to defend their home.Â
 @DT  @dB "You need a HOW many rounds of ammo to "protect" yourself?? "  No one truly knows until events unfold. But specifically, if you have a 30 round magazine and you need to defend yourself and in the process you only use 1, or 3 or 5 then what. Do those extra rounds sitting there unused suddenly get upset and go out and kill someone? If someone has a 1000 round magazine and only use 5 what does it matter?Â
As to what other countries allow, how is that germane given in those countries as well, it is not possible to know how many rounds you need until you need them. You are right though, the defense argument is ridiculous. But its because people say things like "You need a HOW many rounds of ammo to "protect" yourself?? "
 @dB  @T H I S No, most do not.  Stop using hyperbole.  You are 50% of the problem when you do this.
 @T H I S Yes, because there is a cost to freedom. Its not free. No one wants this type of horrible tragedy but there are no good solutions. There is evil out there and taking away peoples mean to defense is not a solution, except to the truly delusional.
 @SeattleJoe  @T H I S DEFENSE??? You need large magazines that would take out an entire classroom????  Really? A simple shotgun or handgun, would suffice. Period.Â
 @DT  @T H I S Well its nice that you can look into a crystal ball and know with certainty that "A simple shotgun or handgun, would suffice. Period. "  for every person and situation. One of my friends is DEA and another is a policeman. Interestingly their opinion doesn't match yours. I think I'll stick with their more informed and professional opinion over your crystal ball.
 @SeattleJoe  @T H I S I'm sorry, are you willing to have your child killed to protect your right to have 30 round magazines for your AR?
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Hey, want to be a part of well regulated militia? Â I will throw down and I'm all in for your right to do that. Â What? Â You want to own all the guns you want and not take those militia related responsibilities? Â I guess you don't believe in the 2nd Amendment as much as you say you do.
 @TehHawt  @T H I S I get the context its just that your comment is completely non sequitur.Â
 @SeattleJoe  @T H I S Check the context.
 @TehHawt  @T H I S "ave your child killed to protect your right to have 30 round magazines for your AR"
Non-sequitur
"Versions of the AR-15 were outlawed in the United States under the 1994 assault weapons ban. That law expired in 2004, and Congress, in a nod to the political clout of the gun-rights lobby, did not renew it."
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Cosmetic features were banned, The functionality was never affected.
 @DarkParty You're right.  Wasn't is simply a short stock and pistol grip?  I think the discussion needs to go far deeper than that.
Rep. Louie Gohmert, a Texas Republican, defended the sale of assault weapons and said that the principal at Sandy Hook, who authorities say died trying to overtake the shooter, should herself have been armed.
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Excuse me?! Â What kind of metal midgets do we have in congress, And people wonder why our country is in such trouble
 @Circe the kinds that get millions in campaign donations, and donations to their bogus non-profit think tanks, from the NRA aka gun mfg lobby. Â
 @DT  @Circe The environmentalists have a lobby. Green energy has a lobby. Just about everyone in the world has a lobby. Why shouldn't the gun lobby be any different? It is a free country the last I checked right?Â
@Circe Oh so it is more noble to cower as a victim trying in vain to save a life but some how it is evil to have a fire arm and maybe have blown this scum bag away well before he killed 27 people? at least she would have died trying to fight back.
 @wynooheeman  @Circe If only the shooter's mother had owned firearms to defend herself......oh.......wait.
 @wynooheeman what the gun nuts seem to be saying is...
we should all have to pack guns in our country because so that we can actualy be safe since there are so many guns on the streets thanks to "responsible gun owners."
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news flash derp boy, a responsible gun own (this guy's mom) is dead thanks to her gn ownership, and so are all those kids.
We shouldn't all have to own guns because this lady thought shee needed to have guns.
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I notice no one seems to want to talk about the fact that you are more likely to have your gun used against you than you are to use your gun in self defense.Â
That is what happened to the shooters mom. Â
 @T H I S "he'd have killed all those kids with all the guns? really? "
What?
 @SeattleJoe "The truth is, someone like that would have just as easily ran a kitchen knife through her or bashed her brains in with a tire iron."
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yeah, but she'd have had a far better chance of defending her self, or running away.Â
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"The issue here is the mental state of the perp not the availability of weapons to kill his mom."
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no, the issue is both.Â
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"The guns made it more convenient but the outcome would have been the same"
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he'd have killed all those kids with all the guns? really?Â
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 @T H I S The fact a mentally deranged lunatic used a lady's firearms against her isn't totally related, though there is some correlation. The truth is, someone like that would have just as easily ran a kitchen knife through her or bashed her brains in with a tire iron. The issue here is the mental state of the perp not the availability of weapons to kill his mom. The guns made it more convenient but the outcome would have been the same. She would be just as dead. Tell that to her. Oh wait, you can't because she was killed by her own son with one of many weapons in her house.
 @TehHawt  @T H I S  @wynooheeman As am I. The problem is I see a lot of people that are far out on both sides. I see the pro gun people pushed to the extreme by the anti gun people always going for a gun grab with every piece of legislation out there. The anti gun people see the lack of progress and are frustrated that their desires are not being enacted.Â
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If we want progress then we need to create a situation where the following can be met:
1. Reasonable legislation is drafted that is specific and expressly limited to targeted areas.
2. Said legislation will not affect those that are not targeted. For Example: If a bill is crafted to limit mentally ill from possessing firearms then only mentally ill should be affected and we shouldn't have 50% of the population suddenly classifiable as mentally ill just so their guns can be taken away.
3. Said legislation should not be crafted as a stepping stone so as to create precedent or incremental movement toward greater control. Each bill should be specific and limited.Â
4. Areas targeted need to solve a specific valid issue that is proven to be an issue through thorough investigation. No "feel good" laws, no laws for scoring political points etc. Example: "Assault weapons" bans. Statistically these so called assault weapons account for a very small amount of gun crime. If you want to make a difference target areas that would actually do some good. Certainly right now while emotions are running high its easy to say "What about the school in CT?!!!!" Â Let me be clear. This is a horrible horrible tragedy but in reality if you want to make a difference an assault weapons ban wouldn't have helped here. Sad but true. On the other hand, if his mental issues had been dealt with that would have done something.
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There can be a middle ground if people are willing to give. But I'm afraid both sides are so entrenched that what does happen is there will be bills introduced to ban this or limit that and because they are not targeted, reasonable etc they will be opposed to an extreme degree, as they should be.Â
 @SeattleJoe "Ah yes the ol' "its more likely to be used against you" argument"
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You should tell that to the person who owned the guns that were used in this school shooting. Oh wait, you can't because she was killed with her own guns.Â
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 @T H I S  @wynooheeman Ah yes the ol' "its more likely to be used against you" argument. Based on the "study" by the CA dude that says you are 41 times more likely to have it used against you. But wait theres more, his "study" was soundly countered by numerous organizations/people because it was so bad. This was college freshman level work that was easily shot down. But it  doesn't stop people from posting it as though its true.
 @wynooheeman Way to take it totally out of bounds.
 @SeattleJoe  @T H I S  @wynooheeman Honestly, I'm looking for the reasonable grown ups who can have this debate from the middle.
 @dB  @T H I S  @wynooheeman No.  I used to carry and own guns.  I don't want to see a ban.  I would, however, like to see ammunition and stockpiling monitored as closely and uniformly as say...Sudafed?
 @Star Shooter  @dB  @T H I S  @wynooheeman Thank you for your wonderfully reasonable and truly insightful post.Â
 @Star Shooter For people that hang out with the kind of person that may be the case.Â
 @SeattleJoe You are more likely to be shot by someone you know (through an act of rage, or an accident)  than by a random criminal.Â
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Criminals.... terrorists... bogeymen.... they are all the same to a certain group of people who do not understand probabilities and statistics.
 @dB @T H I S   @wynooheemanÂ
Im from Texas, and I live in Seattle. So I have two groups of friends, very liberal, and very conservative.Â
My liberal friends are all posting about regulating guns, but no one has said they want to ban all (or even most) guns. In fact, most have specifically states the opposite.
My conservative friends are all posting how stupid liberals want to ban all guns, and take away our feedoms.Â
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There are two groups, and I am having a harder and harder time taking one group seriously because conversations can not even take place without one group trying take everything to some dramatic false conclusion.Â
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I dont even discuss most subjects anymore with my friends back in Texas (except one who can be mature), because even the slightest disagreement is taken as a giant insult to their entire beliefe structure.Â
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But to sum up, no very few liberals (and yes you can find some, but the lsit is very small) are talking about banning all guns, or even mot guns.Â
Most *bans* I have seen discussed are on a few assault style riffles, and high capacity magazines.  And even those conversations become very dramatic to conservatives. Â
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But as I have said, there was a time when you could spot the liberal because they were the ones acting all dramatic. At some point in time... there was a shift.Â
Most of the comments on this and other forums only reinforce that view.
 @T H I S  @wynooheeman Who are you trying to kid? All of the anti gun nuts are trying to ban guns.
 @T H I S  @wynooheeman "Very few people are talking about banning guns. "  Are you kidding me? There are cries from all the usual anti-gun idiots aplenty. This is complete BS.
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"How about we make it at least as difficult to buy a gun as it is to buy a car?" Â
Last I heard you don't need to have the FBI crawl up your butt to do a NICS check on you when buying a car.
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"You seem to thnk that ONLY with guns will more people die from strong regulations. Â "
And you seem to think that taking away one tool from everyone won't stop criminals from switching tools or getting the same tool illegally.Â
You are the kind of person to keep guns away from!! Good day sir!!!!!!
 @wynooheeman at least I am not trying to kill them with strawmen.
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you derped when you should have herped.Â
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@T H I S So you ok with children dying from drunks and those that are smoking pot? WOW! Amazing! you must really not care for children. WOW you don't want to keep kids safe from malpractice
@wynooheeman
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"why are we not trying to ban the car?"
again, im good with this....
http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/guns-vs-cars-222x300.jpg
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"So lets ban all the things that can kill a child."
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lets remember that in the gay marriage stories, you we running around making similiar strawman arguments about letting people marry pets and the such.
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so you're logic is kinda... par for the course.
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 @wynooheeman ok, im bored, lets tear into all the stupid you just posted...
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"That means no law enforcemnt agency local state or federal agency can have them too."
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the definition of strawman right there.  Very few people are talking about banning guns.Â
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"Â Second more kids die each year from drunk or stoned drivers then from fire arms."
And yet through strong laws and active enforcement, we have driven that number down, right? Â
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"So can we now ban cars?"
How about we make it at least as difficult to buy a gun as it is to buy a car?
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how about this:
http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/guns-vs-cars-222x300.jpg
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"you are more likely to die from your doctors mal practice then from a violent gun encounter too shall we now ban Doctors?"
again, lets deregulate doctors and see what happens.
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You seem to thnk that ONLY with guns will more people die from strong regulations. Â
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@T H I S never said that I said more kids die from drunk drivers and those who drive stoned. why are we not trying to ban the car? it can be a weapon. I don't want to see any child die from anything. So lets ban all the things that can kill a child.
 @wynooheeman so because kids die from drunk dirvers it is ok that they die from guns?
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oh look at all the strawmen you just killed.
@T H I S well lets do this lets ban all fire arms. That means no law enforcemnt agency local state or federal agency can have them too. Make sure that the president security team does not have fire arms too. Because they are all banned right? Second more kids die each year from drunk or stoned drivers then from fire arms. So can we now ban cars? you are more likely to die from your doctors mal practice then from a violent gun encounter too shall we now ban Doctors?
 @wynooheeman  @Circe Every time I see a comment like that I think about the four officers from Lakewood who were gunned down.Â
 @T H I S "Shot down" Are  you kidding me? She didn't even begin to shoot me down she just spewed some inane crud that is hard to believe someone would say. The mall shooter showed discretion, and didn't shoot, showing that all these hundreds of deaths that you guys seem to be saying will happen if someone engages a madman didn't in fact happen. If anything she shot down your argument quite effectively.Â
To be clear I don't think a gun is the answer to everything. What I do think is making everyone defenseless isn't the answer either. Present a solution that addresses the problem without infringing people rights and I'll be all over it supporting it. Go for the typical left wing gun grab and I'll fight it.
 @SeattleJoe " Oh really. You have an incident where someone isn't able to take someone down and now that means that every single situation in the world is the same."
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wow, you really got pissy over having your talking point shot down.
Again, when there is a shooter on the loose, the only thing that would make the situation better is.... crossfire... and from someone who may or may not have adequate training...
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You guys are the ones who everytime insists the situation would have been better if more people are armed, and now you want to cry fowl when someone shows you its a BS talking points?
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learn to think past the NRA bumper stickers. the rest of the adults are trying to have a conversation.
@DT @Star Shooter The only way I will be killed by my own hand gun is because I ran out of bullets and they beat me to death with it. One of the rules of engagement I learned early on in my career in the military is there are two types of people in a combat zone the quick and the dead. also to strike strike first and make sure the target is no longer a threat i.e. breathing or pumping blood.
@DT @TehHawt UM FYI The man shooting people in the mall ran after he was confronted by the armed citizen. hence only two people killed not 20+ or more. lives saved.
 @DT  @TehHawt " it really blows the whole "armed citizen" takes down the bad guy, scenario. "  Oh really. You have an incident where someone isn't able to take someone down and now that means that every single situation in the world is the same. No sir, that guy in Clackamas was unable to take the shooter down so no one ever in the entire future of all mankind will be able to do so. But wait, its happened already in other situations and aw shucks it going to happen again. Kind of blows your narrow minded theory. You should do a little googling before making such claims.  Interestingly I hear anti-gunners argue that people shouldn't have guns because trying to take someone down could hurt someone else. Now this guy does the opposite and somehow thats a bad thing. Man you people need to choose one side or the other.
 @DT  @Star Shooter "The guns will most likely be used by their grandson to kill himself, or his grandparents, or used in an argument by their husband, against them.  Or stolen and used against someone else, as the majority of guns at home are. "  Absolutely no factual basis for this speculation. Great hyperbole but that is all.
 @DT First, please learn something about the "Wild West". It keeps you from looking like you don't know what you are talking about.
Next, you are right there is a sickness in America and its not the infamous "gun culture". Its a sickness where people don't raise their kids to value life and property. Without the moral values to treat others correctly we have degenerated into a culture where anything goes and people are not taught to deal with adversity so they bottle it up and someday explode. They have a shelf full of trophies they "won" as a kid where "everybody wins". They have absent fathers or no fathers. They think the world "owes them". They don't know what its like to work and make a living because they spent their childhood in an xbox fantasy world shooting it out and internalizing this world. There is a sickness all right and killings like this are a glaring symptom of it. But like the typical American solution we want to treat the symptom instead of the disease. I'm all for fixing the problem but I don't think America is up to it because it would require effort and people would have to not be selfish and learn to care about others.Â
 @TehHawt  @wynooheeman  @Nikitalynn  @Circe So a person, teacher or whatever, who carries, engages a madman that is shooting everyone in a class room. In this engagement this person is trying to hit the gunman and might hit someone else. The gunman on the other hand is set on killing and is going to hit a lot more than the few that Might be hit by a teacher etc and the gunman is likely to have a lot more ammo to use to do the killing. The idea that its better to be completely defenseless and let someone kill 26 people rather than risk having a teacher possibly hit someone in the process of defending them is absolutely insane. If I were in that classroom I'd definitely prefer the odds where a teacher takes on a gunman rather than simply sit and wait to be slaughtered.Â
 @TehHawt  Did you see the account of the man with the CWP at the Clackamas Mall shooting? He saw the shooter, and said he couldn't shoot, because he realized there were innocents all around the guy, and figured he'd shoot them too, so he had to hold his fire.  Luckily the guy killed himself, but it really blows the whole "armed citizen" takes down the bad guy, scenario.Â
 @Star Shooter I read that there was a 50% increase in women 54-76 buying guns and getting CWP last year.  I'm highly doubting that they're going to lay out a robber in a grocery store any time soon.  The guns will most likely be used by their grandson to kill himself, or his grandparents, or used in an argument by their husband, against them.  Or stolen and used against someone else, as the majority of guns at home are.Â
 @SeattleJoe  Sorry, the Wild West is over.  there is a sickness in America.  And I'm grateful that it will eventually fade as the new generations take over.Â
 @SeattleJoe  @T H I S  @DarkParty  @wynooheeman W U T ?
 @wynooheeman  @Nikitalynn  @Circe Yes, it could have been like the police officer who was shot at a hospital two days ago...oh wait...no, it could have been like the time the armed spectator at the Giffords shooting nearly shot an armed spectator at the Gifford's shooting.......?
 @Star Shooter  @wynooheeman Strangely I've met quite a few people who carry and I've never met one that does so to "feel tough". I too would be afraid of that type but of all cpl holders I know they are all serious people that don't need to "feel tough".Â
 @wynooheeman Assuming the so called "armed citizens" are trained enough to not end up shooting more people.Â
Most people I have met and I know who carry guns, do so with little real training, and for no other reason than to make them feel tough.Â
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If you need to carry a gun to feel safe, then you are probably the last person I want to see carrying a gun because you have some real insecurity issues. And the fact is, I am more affraid of many of the idiots out there with legit concealed carry permits than I am of a mass shooting or an armed robery.Â
 @T H I S  @DarkParty  @wynooheeman Well lets see, gun fire erupts in the school: The teachers A) Say "Hmm, loud bang noises. Must be the wind." or B) Say "Hmmm. Loud banging noises. Class, safety protocol 1A now!". Locks door. Obtains secured firearm. Defends classroom if needed. Others such as principles can say "Hmm, loud banging noises in hallway 2L. Initiate safety protocol 1A!" Obtains secured firearm and heads to hallway 2L.Â
You know, there are a thousand valid scenarios other than the poor helpless teachers in the entire friggin school being so stupid that they cant think for themselves. Sure many are not qualified but for those that are don't you think its better than just leaving the people at the complete mercy of a madman. Â Secured does not have to mean in the building at the far end of campus. Â
 @DarkParty @wynooheeman Yeah, teachers could never be taken by surprise because everyone knows that they all have spider sense. And they will have special training too, so they do not shoot each other, or students, in crossfire.
Oh, and the teachers will always be holding the guns in their hands while teaching, so they do not waste time running to get the guns that would otherwise be stored in a secure location to keep kids from getting them.Â
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 @Nikitalynn  @wynooheeman  @Circe Those officers were unaware and taken by surprise, There was no warning like someone smashing in a window. unfair comparison.
@Nikitalynn @Circe and Gee if there were more armed citizens there there may have not been four officers dead and the perp may have died at the seen too.