Eastern U.S. braces for dangerous superstorm
NEW YORK (AP) — From Washington to Boston, big cities and small towns Sunday buttoned up against the onslaught of a superstorm that could endanger 50 million people in the most heavily populated corridor in the nation, with forecasters warning that the New York area could get the worst of it — an 11-foot wall of water.
"The time for preparing and talking is about over," Federal Emergency Management Administrator Craig Fugate said as Hurricane Sandy made its way up the Atlantic on a collision course with two other weather systems that could turn it into one of the most fearsome storms on record in the U.S. "People need to be acting now."
Forecasters said the hurricane could blow ashore Monday night or early Tuesday along the New Jersey coast, then cut across into Pennsylvania and travel up through New York State on Wednesday.
Airlines canceled more than 7,200 flights and Amtrak began suspending train service across the Northeast. New York, Philadelphia, Washington and Baltimore moved to shut down their subways, buses and trains and said schools would be closed on Monday. Boston also called off school. And all non-essential government offices closed in the nation's capital.
As rain from the leading edges of the monster hurricane began to fall over the Northeast, hundreds of thousands of people from Maryland to Connecticut were ordered to evacuate low-lying coastal areas, including 375,000 in lower Manhattan and other parts of New York City, 50,000 in Delaware and 30,000 in Atlantic City, N.J., where the city's 12 casinos were forced to shut down for only the fourth time ever.
"We were told to get the heck out. I was going to stay, but it's better to be safe than sorry," said Hugh Phillips, who was one of the first in line when a Red Cross shelter in Lewes, Del., opened at noon.
"I think this one's going to do us in," said Mark Palazzolo, who boarded up his bait-and-tackle shop in Point Pleasant Beach, N.J., with the same wood he used in past storms, crossing out the names of Hurricanes Isaac and Irene and spray-painting "Sandy" next to them. "I got a call from a friend of mine from Florida last night who said, 'Mark, get out! If it's not the storm, it'll be the aftermath. People are going to be fighting in the streets over gasoline and food.'"
Authorities warned that the nation's biggest city could get hit with a surge of seawater that could swamp parts of lower Manhattan, flood subway tunnels and cripple the network of electrical and communications lines that are vital to the nation's financial center.
Sandy, a Category 1 hurricane with sustained winds of 75 mph as of Sunday evening, was blamed for 65 deaths in the Caribbean before it began traveling northward, parallel to the Eastern Seaboard. As of 11 p.m., it was centered about 470 miles southeast of New York City, moving at 14 mph, with hurricane-force winds extending an incredible 175 miles from its center.
It was expected to hook inland during the day Monday, colliding with a wintry storm moving in from the west and cold air streaming down from the Arctic.
Forecasters said the combination could bring close to a foot of rain in places, a potentially lethal storm surge of 4 to 11 feet across much of the region, and punishing winds that could cause widespread power outages that last for days. The storm could also dump up to 2 feet of snow in Kentucky, North Carolina and West Virginia.
Louis Uccellini, environmental prediction chief for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, told The Associated Press that given Sandy's east-to-west track into New Jersey, the worst of the storm surge could be just to the north, in New York City, on Long Island and in northern New Jersey.
Forecasters said that because of giant waves and high tides made worse by a full moon, the metropolitan area of about 20 million people could get hit with an 11-foot wall of water.
"This is the worst-case scenario," Uccellini said.
New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg warned: "If you don't evacuate, you are not only endangering your life, you are also endangering the lives of the first responders who are going in to rescue you. This is a serious and dangerous storm."
New Jersey's famously blunt Gov. Chris Christie was less polite: "Don't be stupid. Get out."
New York called off school Monday for the city's 1.1 million students and announced it would suspend all train, bus and subway service Sunday night. More than 5 million riders a day depend on the transit system. The New York Stock Exchange announced it will shut down its trading floor Monday but continue to trade electronically.
Officials also postponed Monday's reopening of the Statue of Liberty, which had been closed for a year for $30 million in renovations.
In Washington, President Barack Obama promised the government would "respond big and respond fast" after the storm hits.
"My message to the governors as well as to the mayors is anything they need, we will be there, and we will cut through red tape. We are not going to get bogged down with a lot of rules," he said.
He also pleaded for neighborliness: "In times like this, one of the things that Americans do is we pull together and we help out one another And so, there may be elderly populations in your area. Check on your neighbor, check on your friend. Make sure that they are prepared. If we do, then we're going to get through this storm just fine."
The storm forced the president and Mitt Romney to rearrange their campaign schedules in the crucial closing days of the presidential race. And early voting on Monday in Maryland and the District of Columbia was canceled.
Despite the dire warnings, some souls were refusing to budge.
Jonas Clark of Manchester Township, N.J. — right in the area where Sandy was projected to come ashore — stood outside a convenience store, calmly sipping a coffee and wondering why people were working themselves "into a tizzy."
"I've seen a lot of major storms in my time, and there's nothing you can do but take reasonable precautions and ride out things the best you can," said Clark, 73. "Nature's going to what it's going to do. It's great that there's so much information out there about what you can do to protect yourself and your home, but it all boils down basically to 'use your common sense.'"
In New Jersey, Denise Faulkner and her boyfriend showed up at the Atlantic City Convention Center with her 7-month-old daughter and two sons, ages 3 and 12, thinking there was a shelter there. She was dismayed to learn that it was just a gathering point for buses to somewhere else. Last year, they were out of their home for two days because of Hurricane Irene.
"I'm real overwhelmed," she said as baby Zahiriah, wrapped in a pink blanket with embroidered elephants, slept in a car seat. "We're at it again. Last year we had to do it. This year we have to do it. And you have to be around all sorts of people — strangers. It's a bit much."
Before leaving their home in Atlantic City, John and Robshima Williams of packed their kids' Halloween costumes so they could go bunk-to-bunk trick-or-treating at a shelter. Her 8-year-old twins are going as the Grim Reaper and a zombie, while her 6-year-old plans to dress as a witch.
"We're just trying to make a bad situation good," the mother said. "We're going to make it fun no matter where we are."
"The time for preparing and talking is about over," Federal Emergency Management Administrator Craig Fugate said as Hurricane Sandy made its way up the Atlantic on a collision course with two other weather systems that could turn it into one of the most fearsome storms on record in the U.S. "People need to be acting now."
Forecasters said the hurricane could blow ashore Monday night or early Tuesday along the New Jersey coast, then cut across into Pennsylvania and travel up through New York State on Wednesday.
Airlines canceled more than 7,200 flights and Amtrak began suspending train service across the Northeast. New York, Philadelphia, Washington and Baltimore moved to shut down their subways, buses and trains and said schools would be closed on Monday. Boston also called off school. And all non-essential government offices closed in the nation's capital.
As rain from the leading edges of the monster hurricane began to fall over the Northeast, hundreds of thousands of people from Maryland to Connecticut were ordered to evacuate low-lying coastal areas, including 375,000 in lower Manhattan and other parts of New York City, 50,000 in Delaware and 30,000 in Atlantic City, N.J., where the city's 12 casinos were forced to shut down for only the fourth time ever.
"We were told to get the heck out. I was going to stay, but it's better to be safe than sorry," said Hugh Phillips, who was one of the first in line when a Red Cross shelter in Lewes, Del., opened at noon.
"I think this one's going to do us in," said Mark Palazzolo, who boarded up his bait-and-tackle shop in Point Pleasant Beach, N.J., with the same wood he used in past storms, crossing out the names of Hurricanes Isaac and Irene and spray-painting "Sandy" next to them. "I got a call from a friend of mine from Florida last night who said, 'Mark, get out! If it's not the storm, it'll be the aftermath. People are going to be fighting in the streets over gasoline and food.'"
Authorities warned that the nation's biggest city could get hit with a surge of seawater that could swamp parts of lower Manhattan, flood subway tunnels and cripple the network of electrical and communications lines that are vital to the nation's financial center.
Sandy, a Category 1 hurricane with sustained winds of 75 mph as of Sunday evening, was blamed for 65 deaths in the Caribbean before it began traveling northward, parallel to the Eastern Seaboard. As of 11 p.m., it was centered about 470 miles southeast of New York City, moving at 14 mph, with hurricane-force winds extending an incredible 175 miles from its center.
It was expected to hook inland during the day Monday, colliding with a wintry storm moving in from the west and cold air streaming down from the Arctic.
Forecasters said the combination could bring close to a foot of rain in places, a potentially lethal storm surge of 4 to 11 feet across much of the region, and punishing winds that could cause widespread power outages that last for days. The storm could also dump up to 2 feet of snow in Kentucky, North Carolina and West Virginia.
Louis Uccellini, environmental prediction chief for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, told The Associated Press that given Sandy's east-to-west track into New Jersey, the worst of the storm surge could be just to the north, in New York City, on Long Island and in northern New Jersey.
Forecasters said that because of giant waves and high tides made worse by a full moon, the metropolitan area of about 20 million people could get hit with an 11-foot wall of water.
"This is the worst-case scenario," Uccellini said.
New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg warned: "If you don't evacuate, you are not only endangering your life, you are also endangering the lives of the first responders who are going in to rescue you. This is a serious and dangerous storm."
New Jersey's famously blunt Gov. Chris Christie was less polite: "Don't be stupid. Get out."
New York called off school Monday for the city's 1.1 million students and announced it would suspend all train, bus and subway service Sunday night. More than 5 million riders a day depend on the transit system. The New York Stock Exchange announced it will shut down its trading floor Monday but continue to trade electronically.
Officials also postponed Monday's reopening of the Statue of Liberty, which had been closed for a year for $30 million in renovations.
In Washington, President Barack Obama promised the government would "respond big and respond fast" after the storm hits.
"My message to the governors as well as to the mayors is anything they need, we will be there, and we will cut through red tape. We are not going to get bogged down with a lot of rules," he said.
He also pleaded for neighborliness: "In times like this, one of the things that Americans do is we pull together and we help out one another And so, there may be elderly populations in your area. Check on your neighbor, check on your friend. Make sure that they are prepared. If we do, then we're going to get through this storm just fine."
The storm forced the president and Mitt Romney to rearrange their campaign schedules in the crucial closing days of the presidential race. And early voting on Monday in Maryland and the District of Columbia was canceled.
Despite the dire warnings, some souls were refusing to budge.
Jonas Clark of Manchester Township, N.J. — right in the area where Sandy was projected to come ashore — stood outside a convenience store, calmly sipping a coffee and wondering why people were working themselves "into a tizzy."
"I've seen a lot of major storms in my time, and there's nothing you can do but take reasonable precautions and ride out things the best you can," said Clark, 73. "Nature's going to what it's going to do. It's great that there's so much information out there about what you can do to protect yourself and your home, but it all boils down basically to 'use your common sense.'"
In New Jersey, Denise Faulkner and her boyfriend showed up at the Atlantic City Convention Center with her 7-month-old daughter and two sons, ages 3 and 12, thinking there was a shelter there. She was dismayed to learn that it was just a gathering point for buses to somewhere else. Last year, they were out of their home for two days because of Hurricane Irene.
"I'm real overwhelmed," she said as baby Zahiriah, wrapped in a pink blanket with embroidered elephants, slept in a car seat. "We're at it again. Last year we had to do it. This year we have to do it. And you have to be around all sorts of people — strangers. It's a bit much."
Before leaving their home in Atlantic City, John and Robshima Williams of packed their kids' Halloween costumes so they could go bunk-to-bunk trick-or-treating at a shelter. Her 8-year-old twins are going as the Grim Reaper and a zombie, while her 6-year-old plans to dress as a witch.
"We're just trying to make a bad situation good," the mother said. "We're going to make it fun no matter where we are."
I am here in NYC visiting rom Seattle,the Mayor & Governor have been making plans for evacuation since Saturday, the shelters have been prepared since Sunday morning and people are being told to evacuate,  it is mandatory, the NYPD  have been going in the areas with flooding potential to get people to leave and go to the shelters. All pets are welcome too. They are not waiting to the last minute. Everything is being done to make sure people and pets are safe. People have been preparing all afternoon. It is very strange to see and be in NYC when it is so empty.
stay safe
Best of luck people!Â
When the earth moves here in the PNW, we won't have a warning or a couple of days to stock up on supplies in order to cope with the aftermath. Overnight, the zombies will empty the Safeway shelves and loot the Home Depot and Lowes...what are you going to do then?
For once I agree with Governor "Fatboy" Christie. Get out!
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What were the Largest Hurricane to Hit the United States? And not one a Cat 1 (like this storm).
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http://www.epicdisasters.com/index.php/site/comments/the_ten_deadliest_us_hurricanes/
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I look at all of these posts and chuckle. Have we degraded SO much as a society that we have to ARGUE over a natural event and how to handle it? Here's how I look at it. If you're in the "danger zone" and are advised to get out.......DO it. Or DON'T do it. If you DO get out, good for you. You might still be alive when it's over. If you DON'T get out, you exercised your freedom of choice, but DON'T expect someone to come SAVE your stupid butt. It's ALL about personal ACCOUNTABILITY. I'll account for ME. YOU account for YOU. We'll see who wins in the end. In the meanwhile, I'll pray that those effected by this storm, manage, stay safe, and survive. (IF they want to) After all.....it IS their own CHOICE. :)
 @Wolfen Perfect! As far as I'm concerned, no further posts necessary. Though I hope somehow, everyone wins. Good luck out there y'all...
We were living in Norfolk Va when the remnants of hurrican David came through years ago and it's just hard to believe how violent those storms can be. They didn't evacuate the area, but there was martial law in place. These storms are not something to take lightly. Even though it had been downgraded to a tropical storm it still did a lot of damage. Pretty scarey stuff.
It's strange that with all the flooding NJ got with Irene they would place people in low lying shelters to begin with. It was inevitable that anyone on coast would have to move inland to and to higher ground.Â
My house was flooded from high winds and storm surge when I was living on salt water spit here in the Puget Sound that was scary enough, if I lived there I would be long gone!! They wouldnât have to tell me twice!! I cannot even imagine trying to ride out something like this!!Â
If you have ever been through a hurricane or tornado you know how absolutely terrifying they can be. Get out while you can and don't jeopardize the lives of others.
 @Ned Is an earthquake more scarier than a hurricane/tornado?
 @Ned I agree Ned. Thing is this storm is sooooo huge and millions of people are in the line of fire; where the heck do you evacuate to?
 @Petwlkr  @Ned It's called "Planning" You make friends *ahead of time* (through church, social media, family, or whatever) in areas that are in locations appropriate for your likely disasters - far enough away to be useful, close enough to be able to get to in an emergency. Pre-position some basic stuff there - a few changes of cloths, personals-kit, a bit of emergency food, maybe a few boxes of ammo and a bit of cash - nothing fancy of expensive, just the basics. Every year or so (preferably more often), make a trip out that way, always taking a different rout, and visit, change your food stash, etc.
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Nothing magic or difficult about it - just thinking ahead.
 @Hagar  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Ned Judging from what a sweet and demure creature Mrs. Vishess becomes when she fails to get her twice hourly nic fix, I can foresee envying the dead should the bomb drop and she is out of smokes.
 @Sid Vishess  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Ned Oh man, Sid, you got me laughing at that one. But you are right.
 @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Ned And don't forget the cartons of cigs that would become the de facto everyday currency under apocalyptic conditions.
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Nicotine junkies will sacrifice food, water and ...er... companionship for a pack of Marlboros.
 @Petwlkr Good point. Usually officials have shelters set up but the disabled and elderly may have trouble getting to them. I'd rather find a official shelter than try to ride it out in a stick framed house. There has been plenty of warning about this storm so most people have had the time to get to official shelters.
 @RN1  @Ned  @Petwlkr Citations please.
 @Ned  @Petwlkr Remember - if you are in an "official shelter,: you are a refugee, and you have about as many rights as a German Jew in 1938: very likely no guns, no pets, don't expect to bring anything with you of value, abandoning your stuff means you potentially leave it for looters, if you bring extra supplies for yourself such as food, do not be surprised if they are confiscated and "re-distributed for the common good" if things take longer than expected, etc. Depending on government help should ALWAYS be an absolutely last choice, after Plan A, B, D, E, F, ang G have all failed, and plans H through Z14 are not looking very good.
My retirement dream is to load five semis with plywood, flashlights bottled water and other emergency supplies and park them in Florida and wait for the next hurricane. I'd sell everything at $10 on the penny and make a fortune.
Those idiots always wait until the very last moment to stock up and act like it has never happened before.
 @Glassman Never mind politics. Never mind laws. Never mind any of it.
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Hell has special places for those who profit off of human misery. This post of yours speaks volumes to the person you are. If that makes me a bleeding heart liberal to say, you know, what I wouldn't sell a $1 1 liter bottle of water for $1000 (hey, you wrote $10 on the penny) in an emergency - then label me bleeding heart liberal.
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By the way there are some flaws in your plan. For conditions to be that bad to be willing to pay $1000 for a 1 liter bottle of water, you will then have no phone service or power. With no phone service or power you can't do transactions. Citizens can't get to ATM machines to get cash so what do you take then? First born for slavery? Maybe a little noogie in the back of the trailer? That would grow old -- but I guess you can take grandma's silver.
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I spent eight years on a search and rescue team. I know karma doesn't come in these direct slap you on the side of your head flavors, but I would find it hugely ironic if you ever needed to be rescued from some event that blind sided you, a wrong place at the wrong time, a bad step on a hiking trail, and you were suffering from thirst, and you asked for some water when the search team arrived, and they looked at you and said, $1000 please, and we only take cash...
 @Howard Beale  @Glassman Doctors and nurses should work for minimum wage. Otherwise, they are profiting on the misery of others. Next argument, please.
 @SouthofSeattle  @Howard Beale  @Glassman All aboard the sarcasm train. Uh oh... SOS missed it.
 @Sid Vishess  @Howard Beale  @Glassman Only if you pay their student loans. I would rather pay a doctor a little extra since he paid to have an education than pay some quack with no education minimum wage. Sounds to me like you are a bit envious of others and lack the proper skills to accomplish what they have.
 @Howard Beale  @Glassman If charity wishes to be charitable, I have no problem with that. A charity is many degrees more efficient at relief than the ploddering  efforts of the Feds. Katrina Mobile Homes, anyone?
I also don't object to people using their talents and capital to help people while profiting themselves.
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 @Sid Vishess  @Glassman And leave it to a narrow mind to twist a statement for personal gain. If I follow YOUR logic, not mine, then shut down the drug companies and get rid of the fire department, they all benefit from human suffering.
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You know exactly what I meant, or you are incredibly obtuse. Hell has a special place for African arms dealers, blood diamond operations, and those who profit off those trapped in a natural disaster.
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In your world the Red Cross worker who is giving up personal vacation time to go to a total stranger and say, "here, here is a free sandwich and a bottle of water," is interfering with free enterprise. Damn it man, the Red Cross should be charging for a cup of coffee, not giving it out FREE!!!!
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Oh wait, or is that not what YOU meant? Next argument - please - you tool.
 @Glassman 'Idiots'? How about 'financially strapped'. It's people like you who take advantage of those who CAN'T prepare ahead of time in an era of economic weakness. Caring you are not.
 @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman If they couldn't afford it before the storm, then they can't afford it during the storm, so they are not part of the equation. "Caring" has NOTHING to do with capitalism, and the basic laws of risk-premiums, supply, and demand. People like you would rather than EVERYONE go without than the slightly better off get a bit more because they can afford it. It's called ENVY, and it's not pretty - just as bad as greed, if not worse, because it's more destructive.
 @RN1  @Glassman 'supply and demand' are one thing, but saying you will sell commodities at higher prices than usual is called PRICE-GOUGING. I lived through Katrina and moved up to WA after and, let me tell you, the people who price-gouged got their butts handed to them later.
 @RN1 In general, you can usually tell who I replied to by looking at the first name in the list of people that shows up before my actual comment. In the case above, I was asking Sid what his point was with his comment and his linking to the article on Sarah Palin. I honestly can't tell what his position is based on that.
 @KieferSkunk  @Sid Vishess  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman One point is I HATE this new comment forum system, because it's threading system SUCKS. I have no idea what post you are replying too.
 @Sid Vishess  @RN1  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman And what is your point?
 @KieferSkunk  @RN1  @SouthofSeattle  @GlassmanÂ
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Yes, they "got in trouble." All those items you cited are violations of a free economy.  Yes, corporations will try to skirt the boundaries.  They should not be given a pass and free marketers don't.Â
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I believe Governor Palin's response to Big Oil when they wished to do business as usual in Alaska; "I don't think so."
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sarah-palin-e-mails-shows-hostility-toward-big-oil-as-republican-governor-of-alaska/2011/06/12/AGLP0ASH_story.html
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 @RN1  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman First off, your assertion that Enron was a "red herring" is incorrect. One of the many things they did that got them in trouble was to begin manipulating the California energy market AFTER it had been deregulated. Therefore, that market was a "free market" by your definition. So in fact, Enron serves as a perfect example of what big companies can do when they're allowed to set their own rules.
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Now, as for other markets where corruption and manipulation have occurred:
- Telecommunications: MCI Worldcom, accounting fraud from 1999 to 2002.
- Telecommunications: American Bell, monopoly until 1984.
- Software: Microsoft, in trouble for anti-trust and monopolistic practices, negative judgment by European Union in 2004.
- Video games: Nintendo engaged in unfair market manipulation by restricting cartridge distribution to only companies willing to pay for exclusive details. Busted for this around 1990.
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While none of these examples really apply to the current NATURAL DISASTER that is about to hit the east coast, they are examples of companies that have gotten in trouble because they were manipulating the so-called "free market" to their own benefit. There are many, many more examples of this throughout history, which all boil down to: People are greedy, and when given the chance, they tend to hurt others for their own personal gain. That is not the spirit of free enterprise.
 @KieferSkunk  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman can you name a free market?
 @RN1  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman How many other examples of free market manipulators do you want, then?
 @KieferSkunk  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman Enron - a red herring. It was gaming market regulations, not operating in a free market.
 @RN1  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman Or I might be stating that there are alternatives to gouging that still meet the needs of the people. But in your mind (based on what you've said here, at least), profiteering and universal suffering are the only viable options.
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Also, every time I hear someone trot out this whole "free market economy" argument, I just point at Enron. That worked REALLY well, didn't it?
 @KieferSkunk  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman When people make choises, they are stating that they prefer the logical consequences of their choice MORE THAN the consequences of the other choice. If you desire anti-gouging laws, then you are saying you'd rather have shortages of things because they are not buyable at ANY price, because that IS the consequence of penalizing risk-taking via speculating in market demand. Not a troll - just an observer of the realities of human nature and basic market forces and realities.
 @RN1  @SouthofSeattle  @Glassman Wow, that's quite the leap in logic. Care to explain how you went from "There are a lot of people who can't afford to prepare" to "You'd rather EVERYONE went without"? I didn't see ANYTHING in SouthofSeattle's comment stating the latter - in fact, his statement was quite the opposite.
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As I said above, you're off-topic and off-base. And likely a simple troll who has no place on this board.
 @Glassman You are hardly the first person to think of that. You also wouldn't be the first person to go to jail for it. Price gouging of "essentials" during an emergency is not taken lightly in Florida. That's provided of course it ever gets that far and you don't wind up on the wrong end of vigilante justice as James127 pointed out. I have seen it happen first hand; it wasn't pretty.Â
 @Petwlkr  @Glassman And, because of "gouging" laws, needs go unmet. Just like in any totalitarian area, where the commissar s "know better" than local folks and businessmen, what is needed and what's a "fair" price. It's anti-capitalist, driven by people to stupid or uneducated to know what a "risk premium" is.
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If you don't like the price, DON'T BUY! How difficult is that? But, because of "anti-gouging" laws, needed goods are not available at ANY price. Stupid.
 @Sid Vishess  @Howard Beale  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Glassman Hah! I have a Masters Degree in Mining Engineering from Penn State. That and $3 will get me a cup of coffee!
 @Hagar  @Howard Beale  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Glassman And that two at the UW, of course...
 @Hagar  @Howard Beale  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Glassman Thanks! I am so glad that my four years of Community College is paying off.
 @Sid Vishess  @Howard Beale  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Glassman Sid, you may drag your knuckles at times but I would never call you a moron my friend!
 @RN1  @Howard Beale  @Petwlkr  @Glassman I don't think anyone has suggested that government should try to centrally plan everything. What we're all saying is that it is WRONG, IMMORAL, UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL to manipulate the market like Glassman originally suggested. Regulation or no, if you back someone into a corner for an essential good or service that they absolutely need to survive, then gouge them for it, you are a criminal. Plain and simple.
 @KieferSkunk  @Howard Beale  @Petwlkr  @Glassman And everyone loses when the government think they can pass laws to repeal the laws of supply and demand, or human nature. Yes, the big companies are impressive in what they can do. But, like any central planning authority, they have some very serious limitations on what they can do.
 @Scoondog  @Howard Beale  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @GlassmanÂ
  "I think it's all about Sid..."
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Well, yeah...
 @Sid Vishess  @Howard Beale  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Glassman I think it's all about Sid...
 @RN1  @Howard Beale  @Petwlkr  @Glassman And then these so-called small-timers are beaten out of the market by big corporations that already have a ton of money to throw around. Competition is invariably stifled when companies are allowed to set their own rules.
 @Howard Beale  @Petwlkr  @Glassman See. If you DON'T outlaw gouging, then a lot of small-timers move into action, and market equilibrium and fair prices are reached FASTER than if you outlaw the possibility of unusually high profits. Yes, the big-box logistics are very impressive - but they can only draw on resources in the normal retail channels. They DON'T draw in non-traditional resources, such as the contractor who just had several truck-loads of building materials delivered, as is willing and able to delay construction, contract some independent truck-drivers to get them into the disaster area, and essentially deliver door-to-door needed goods beyond what the normal retailers can do. If too many people do it, then prices drop fast. But by outlawing it, you *ensure* that it'll take longer to reach market equib.
 @Howard Beale  @RN1  @Petwlkr  @GlassmanÂ
"Although Sid can be a knuckle dragging moron..."
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I wish you wouldn't hold back your true feelings.Â
 @RN1  @Petwlkr  @Glassman I see RN1 - tell me, how much retail logistics and operations experience do you have at the corporate level? How many collaboration sites have you set up and disaster management solutions for retailers.
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The level of mobilization that can do is beyond stunning. Post Katrina Wal-Mart was one of the very first places operating, in tents, with massive amounts of critical supplies, being sold at regular prices. They simply pull the inventory from other channels and have logistic deals in place already lined up with shipping companies. They work with government agencies to get priority on passing over damaged roads. They employ people in these roles to manage these very issues that are logistical geniuses, and/or come from military background.
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The phone calls and emergency purchase orders to Honda for every flippin' generator they can their hands on went a long time ago. Coca-Cola can switch over bottling operations to Dasani water to meet that demand on a JIT basis.
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For manufacturers this is an opportunity to operate at over 100% - increasing profits as most factory lines need to be working at or near 100% to be profitable.
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Is it perfect? Nope. But if you could see these operations I think you would be pretty darn surprised at how much the actually can do. Although Sid can be a knuckle dragging moron - his post about more than one seeking opportunity quickly brings market equilibrium, far more faster than anyone can make huge profits. That is the beauty of a free market economy. Ya, I may look at it and go, I can sell bottled water for $4 a bottle instead of $1, and I'll make a killing. The problem is there is a guy down the street, also buying up all the bottle water he or she can, and is planning to sell it for $3.75, and next door to them...
 @RN1  @Howard Beale  @Petwlkr  @Glassman Let it go RN1. Arguing that free market principals actually will RELIEVE suffering and get the goods to people sooner is going to fall on deaf ears. If people think they can make a killing in say, plywood, water and generators, they will allocate resources to that effort quickly in order to maximize their advantage over competitors. The competitors are doing the same. Quickly, an equilibrium is reached. Far more quickly than if "profits" were criminalized. Of course, feelings are more important than results.
 @Howard Beale  @Petwlkr  @Glassman Yes, they do all this - but their channels are designed for "normal" demand, because they are designed for high efficiency, not a huge surge in demand. Yes, they will increase supply dramatically, but it will STILL be below demand - or was everyone well-supplied after Katrian and I missed the memo?
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What the anit-gouging laws do is discourage people from loading up a truck of stuff they think people MIGHT need, and take the risk people might NOT need it, and drive it into the disaster area with the POSSIBILITY of higher than normal profits. If they guess wrong, they go bust. If they change too much, people refuse to buy. If Home Depot, Lowes, et all manage to meet demand with their supply chain, then the speculator goes bust. But what the anti-gouging laws *do* is ensure that if the normal supply chain (those hated mega-big-box stores et al) CAN'T meet demand then there WILL be shortages, meaning items won't be available at ANY price. You'd rather have that? How is that better? You'd rather have everyone miserable, rather than some better off because of better choices.
 @RN1  @Petwlkr  @GlassmanÂ
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What a fallacy! Here is how it works in the real world, not your fantasy land.
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Right now major retailers that would have a big stake in the game in storm prep and post storm clean up like Home Depot, Lowes, Wal-Mart, Target, Kroger (and affiliate companies) all have war rooms already established. They would have already moved in vital needs from other regions to support demand (plywood, nails, generators, gas cans, bottled water, canned food, flashlights, batteries). They would also have inventoried properties at the most risk. If any major distribution centers are in harms way, the materials would be moved to the periphery.
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Additionally post clean up supplies, gas cans, chain saws, shovels, timber, tarps, bottled water, canned goods, heat and eat, etc. is already stationed out of harms way, on the edges of the impacted storm areas.
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These war room efforts would also be coordinating with other shipping companies, from freight forwarding services to UPS and FedEx, and working with government officials on getting priority for transit into impacted areas. Plans on how to get damaged stores up and running as quickly as possible, even setting up tent operations if needed would already be in place, and the materials to that stationed.
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This effort is massive - and they do all this without gouging. Without gouging!?!? HOW!!!???!!! Because they make it up in the sales. The part you don't understand is that these retailers are in a race with each other before the last rain drop falls. Whomever has the best logistics and gets the materials in first - wins.
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They do it all, without having to restort to profiteering off of human misery and yes I can assure you, that the things needed for clean up get into the area.
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If your argument is really going to be because the rain soaked collapsed roof house with all the interior soaked in rain water, mud and sea water couldn't get a blue tarp on it for three days caused more damage - your position is beyond silly.
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The number one killer and property damage cause in a hurricane is flooding and a storm surge. Once the inside of a house gets wet, no retailer no where sells anything that will mitigate the damage. Especially from sea water.
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That's what insurance is for.
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Finally, the other point of stupidity - the people that stay behind - are historically too poor to leave. They have no where to go get out of harms way. Sure, you can charge them $4 (if I use your model) for a $1 bottle of water, but if they can't afford a $100 a night hotel room, a $75 tank of gas to drive out, and have no where to go - what makes you think they have the $4 for a bottled water.
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Thankful the idiots at Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Lowes, and Kroger are a lot smarter than you.
 @RN1 You are way off-topic and off-base. Needs don't go "unmet" because people aren't allowed to gouge for them. For every price gouger, there's a charitable organization or government agency that meets the same needs of those people FOR FREE.
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The real reason needs tend to go unmet is because people are underprepared for natural disasters. It has nothing to do with "anti-gouging laws". Please stop inserting politics into everything - that ship sailed long ago.
 @Glassman You and I, and any sane capitalist, would see this as a simple meeting of supply and demand. (As a practical matter, though, you could only get two or three times the normal going price, not a hundred or more times the price).
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The leftists, commies, economic idiots, and politicians of the world (but I repeat myself) would see this a "gouging" and charge you with a crime, impound your materials, and thus letting the needs go unmet, meaning more houses would be damaged, more money paid out in claims, etc.
 @RN1  @Glassman BTW, since you've already managed to play the political card, name one conservative politician that would support this crazy idea. Just one. Back it up with facts and citations. And then look at how the rest of the Republican party views that person.
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My prediction is that you either can't name such a person, or that you'll end up condemning your whole party in an effort to prove your point.
 @RN1  @Glassman The topic is an impending natural disaster, and you still manage to pervert the topic into a political vein. Holy cow
 @flibbles  @RN1 Shouldn't matter, right? Free market and all, what's the difference between a guy loading up his truck and a big corporation? Price gouging is price gouging either way.
 @KieferSkunk  @RN1 First off, none of you can compare this guy to companies, for it's not a company, the guy is just wanting to load up semi-trucks and drive them down there to sell goods. He isn't a company, it's like some random guy selling items on craigslist that are higher priced than the same item at a store.
 @RN1 There's a simple principle that can be applied to virtually every argument here. It's called "Common Sense". Of course companies can mark things up. And so long as they actually have competition, they have an incentive to keep their markups low. The problem with Glassman's proposal is that he would corner the market, when there was nobody else around to compete with him, and then jack up the prices for essential goods past the point where ANYONE could consider it reasonable.
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Sure, you want to go ahead and charge 1000 times what the next person down the street is charging for your stuff, go right ahead. You'll be laughed out of existence. The government doesn't stop you from doing that. It's when you have a stranglehold on your market and people have no CHOICE but to buy from you that the principle of "free market economics" no longer applies.
 @KieferSkunk Here is the crux of the problem. What percentage is "Gouging," and why not one percentage more or less? A hundred percent mark-up? Well, that's a lot of typical retailers. 300%? That would nail a lot of higher-end retailers. What price is "gouging" for something I've got sitting out back, and decide to load up and deliver, but I really can't remember how much I paid for it, but I know it cost me a hundred bucks in gas to get it there? THAT is the problem - it creates uncertainty in the non-typical-channel marketplace. A gasoline station charging $10/gal, limit 4 gal per customer, because there is no knowing when restock will occur, is that gouging? What's if that's done by government fiat, and called "rationing," is the same price and limits OK then? THAT is the problem with gouging laws. Because of uncertainty, supplies are artificially limited. Governments need to make sure that laws are applied fairly, NOT that "outcomes are fair," whatever THAT may mean.
 @RN1 With all due respect, I still think you're off-base here. Nobody has said it's wrong for a company to make a profit by selling goods that people need. What we've been trying to drill through your thick head here is that it's wrong and illegal to gouge consumers for those goods. Glassman suggested that he could make a huge profit by marking up critical goods by an order of magnitude for the people who either couldn't afford to prepare for a natural disaster, or didn't get around to it, etc. When those people are in their greatest need, he would swoop in and make a killing.
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And yes, technically you COULD do that in a truly free economy. But I doubt you'd survive long, both as a business and as a human being. People in ancient times who tried that sort of B.S. got strung up in the center of town by their ankles, as an example for others.
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The point of government regulation is to set a level playing field, to establish rules that all businesses have to abide by, because it HAS been proven time and time again that businesses will cheat and swindle at every opportunity they get in order to maximize their profits when given the chance.
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I know there's no way I personally can convince you of this, so maybe the best suggestion I can come up with is to try applying your model of market manipulation to some place in need and see how well it works out for you. Let us know if you come back in one piece.
 @Howard Beale  @TruthinAdverts  @Glassman It isn't that we favor people profiting FROM human suffering. It is that we favor people to make a profit by RELIEVING human suffering. You'd rather they suffer, and not have the choice of buying on the free market. You are ANTI-freedom, ANTI-choice.
The Morality of Money or lack of it, has been a very big topic for ages including, as an example, around the breaking up of The Money Trust when the SEC was formed and Glass Steagal, recently largely repealed by the GLB Act, setting us for Too Big To Fail, plus making it Federal versus State rights, to define usury. Â Previously you would go to jail for Loan Sharking or Racketeering at rates defined as usury on most State's rule books that average less than the average credit card rate today. Â Meanwhile, NGO administrators and others, can get paid very handsomely today also. Â Look it up, the salaries are impressive for many of the largest ones, even their regional chapters. Â Sure people should make a decent living even while doing good...but the Morality of Money topic can also apply to the non profit sector, etc. Â Also some of the best Do Good efforts are done on the for profit side. Â But we all know this and online forums that appeal best to short soundbite and attention spans, are tough places to do proper justice to many topics. Sent from my iPad
 @TruthinAdverts  @Glassman It's a disaster because it involved people, who must obey laws or be punished. Otherwise it would just be an "event." So, addressing the human / legal realities IS on-topic.
 @Howard Beale  @TruthinAdverts  @Glassman I'd rather people make a profit off of human suffering, and alleviating it in the process, then letting even more people suffer because speculation, risk profits, and freedom to contract were prohibited.
 @Howard Beale  @TruthinAdverts  @RN1  @Glassman Howard, I agree with most of what you said, except for this part:"The other thing that neither apparently can't see is that there is something fundamentally wrong from making a profit off of human suffering."
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Using that logic, anytime there is someone in dire need of some product, item or service that would prevent them injury, death, or other suffering it should be given to them for free.
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Think of everything people buy that prevents suffering. Â Food and Water come to mind.
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Now, I do agree that taking advantage of people in a way to profit from their suffering above and beyond normal is wrong. Â
 @TruthinAdverts  @RN1  @Glassman Stunning isn't it.
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The other thing that neither apparently can't see is that there is something fundamentally wrong from making a profit off of human suffering.
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If the concept of their get rich quick scheme really worked, there would be McDonalds in the deserts of Somalia.
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Why yes Mr. Click-click-durk - we'll take your starving goat as payment for a Big Mac.
If your buyers were as greedy as you are, most of it would be stolen before you had a chance to sell it.