Roe v Wade: After 40 years, deep divide is legacy

NEW YORK (AP) - By today's politically polarized standards, the Supreme Court's momentous Roe v. Wade ruling was a landslide. By a 7-2 vote on Jan. 22, 1973, the justices established a nationwide right to abortion.
Forty years and roughly 55 million abortions later, however, the ruling's legacy is the opposite of consensus. Abortion ranks as one of the most intractably divisive issues in America, and is likely to remain so as rival camps of true believers see little space for common ground.
Unfolding events in two states illustrate the depth of the divide. In New York, already a bastion of liberal abortion laws, Gov. Andrew Cuomo pledged in his Jan. 9 State of the State speech to entrench those rights even more firmly. In Mississippi, where many anti-abortion laws have been enacted in recent years, the lone remaining abortion clinic is on the verge of closure because nearby hospitals won't grant obligatory admitting privileges to its doctors.
"Unlike a lot of other issues in the culture wars, this is the one in which both sides really regard themselves as civil rights activists, trying to expand the frontiers of human freedom," said Jon Shields, a professor of government at Claremont McKenna College. "That's a recipe for permanent conflict."
On another hot-button social issue - same-sex marriage - there's been a strong trend of increasing support in recent years, encompassing nearly all major demographic categories.
There's been no such dramatic shift, in either direction, on abortion.
For example, a new Pew Research Center poll finds 63 percent of U.S. adults opposed to overturning Roe, compared to 60 percent in 1992. The latest Gallup poll on the topic shows 52 percent of Americans saying abortion should be legal under certain circumstances, 25 percent wanting it legal in all cases and 20 percent wanting it outlawed in all cases - roughly the same breakdown as in the 1970s.
"There's a large share of Americans for whom this is not a black-and-white issue," said Michael Dimock, the Pew center's director. "The circumstances matter to them."
Indeed, many conflicted respondents tell pollsters they support the right to legal abortion while considering it morally wrong. And a 2011 survey of 3,000 adults by the Public Religion Research Institute found many who classified themselves as both "pro-life" and "pro-choice."
Shields, like many scholars of the abortion debate, doubts a victor will emerge anytime soon.
"There are reasonable arguments on both sides, making rationally defensible moral claims," he said.
Nonetheless, the rival legions of activists and advocacy groups on the front lines of the conflict each claim momentum is on their side as they convene symposiums and organize rallies to commemorate the Roe anniversary.
Supporters of legal access to abortion were relieved by the victory of their ally, President Barack Obama, over anti-abortion Republican Mitt Romney in November.
A key reason for the relief related to the Supreme Court, whose nine justices are believed to divide 5-4 in favor of a broad right to abortion. Romney, if elected, might have been able to appoint conservative justices who could help overturn Roe v. Wade, but Obama's victory makes that unlikely at least for the next four years.
Abortion-rights groups also were heartened by a backlash to certain anti-abortion initiatives and rhetoric that they viewed as extreme.
"Until politicians feel there's a price to pay for voting against women, they will continue to do it," said Cecile Richards, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, a lightning rod for conservative attacks because it's the leading abortion provider in the U.S.
In Missouri and Indiana, Republican candidates for the U.S. Senate lost races that their party initially expected to win after making widely criticized comments regarding abortion rights for impregnated rape victims. In Virginia, protests combined with mockery on late-night TV shows prompted GOP politicians to scale back a bill that would have required women seeking abortions to undergo a transvaginal ultrasound.
"All these things got Americans angry and got them to realize just how extreme the other side is," said Jennifer Dalven, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Reproductive Freedom Project.
"This issue will remain very divisive," she said. "But I do see this as a sea-change moment... The American public wants abortion to remain safe, legal and accessible."
However, anti-abortion leaders insist they have reason for optimism, particularly at the state level.
In the past two years, following Republican election gains in 2010, GOP-dominated state legislatures have passed more than 130 bills intended to reduce access to abortion. The measures include mandatory counseling and ultrasound for women seeking abortions, bans on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, curbs on how insurers cover the procedure, and new regulations for abortion clinics.
The ACLU and other abortion-rights groups are challenging several of the laws in court, notably the 20-week ban. Yet already this year, Republican leaders in Texas, Mississippi and elsewhere are talking about new legislative efforts to restrict abortion.
Mississippi's Gov. Phil Bryant says he wants to end abortion in the state and is eager for the remaining clinic, the Jackson Women's Health Organization, to close.
"My goal, of course, is to shut it down," Bryant told reporters on Jan. 10. "If I had the power to do so legally, I'd do so tomorrow."
The clinic is a steady target of anti-abortion protesters who take turns praying, singing hymns and confronting patients. Its administrator, Diane Derzis, says the three principal physicians on her staff have been unable to get admitting privileges at area hospitals due to pressure from the anti-abortion movement.
Such developments hearten Charmaine Yoest, president of Americans United for Life, one of the groups most active in proposing anti-abortion bills for state legislatures to consider.
"Within the context of Roe, we have been remarkably successful in terms of expanding the legal protection of human life," Yoest said. "We're working to make Roe irrelevant."
Yoest's optimism derives partly from her belief that young Americans are increasingly skeptical about abortion, though polls give mixed verdicts on this matter.
"It is really easy to explain the pro-life position to a child - it's hard to explain to them why you should kill a baby before it's born," Yoest said.
Supporters of legal access to abortion dispute the notion of swelling anti-abortion sentiment among young people, but some activists do sense a gap in terms of political intensity.
"I have enormous hope in this millennial generation - they're progressive, thoughtful and they identify in their pro-choice values," said Nancy Keenan, who will soon be stepping down after eight years as president of NARAL Pro-Choice America.
"But there is an intensity gap - they don't act on those values," Keenan said. "The other side votes their anti-choice, pro-life values - it's at the top of their political activity."
She drew a contrast with the push for same-sex marriage.
"With marriage equality, gays and lesbians are fighting for something they didn't have," Keenan said. "In the case of reproductive rights, you're trying to maintain the status quo. The millennial generation doesn't see it as threatened."
Another difference: the campaign for same-sex marriage has benefited greatly from personal testimony by gay couples, speaking out in legislative hearings and campaign videos. By contrast, although millions of American women have had abortions, relatively few speak out publicly to defend their decisions.
"If you know some women, you know a woman who's had abortion," said Dr. Anne Davis, who is medical director for Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health and provides abortions as part of her practice in New York City.
"But you do not see women talking about their abortions," Davis said. "They do what they need to do and move on. I can't blame people for that."
Davis, who learned abortion techniques during her residency at the University of Washington in the mid-'90s, said the procedure has become increasingly safe - notably with the advent of abortions via medication. She expressed dismay at the spate of restrictive laws that she and many of her fellow physicians view as ill-founded.
"Initially, we'd say, 'That's ridiculous' - and now we're stuck with them," she said.
Despite all the furor, abortion has been commonplace in the post-Roe era, with about one-third of adult women estimated to have had at least one in their lifetime.
Of the roughly 1.2 million U.S. women who have abortions each year, half are 25 or older, about 18 percent are teens, and the rest are 20-24. About 60 percent have given birth to least one child prior to getting an abortion. A disproportionately high number are black or Hispanic; and regardless of race, high abortion rates are linked to economic hard times.
The Roe opinion, written by Justice Harry Blackmun, asserted that the right to privacy extended to a women's decision on whether to end a pregnancy. States have been allowed to restrict abortion access at late stages of pregnancy, but only if they make exceptions for protecting the mother's health - and the net result has been one of the most liberal abortion policies in the world.
At the time of Roe v. Wade, abortion was legal on request in four states, allowed under limited circumstances in about 16 others, and outlawed under nearly all circumstances in the other states, including Texas, where the Roe case originated.
One of the most liberal members of the current Supreme Court, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, is among those who have questioned the timing of the Roe ruling and suggested that it contributed to the ongoing bitter debate.
"It's not that the judgment was wrong, but it moved too far too fast," Ginsburg said at Columbia University last year.
She said the court could have put off dealing with abortion while the state-by-state process evolved or it could have struck down just the Texas law, which allowed abortions only to save a mother's life.
Asked about Ginsburg's musings, Cecile Richards of Planned Parenthood said the Roe ruling was critically needed to curb unsafe abortions in states where the procedure was outlawed.
"Women were paying the price with their lives," she said.
However, Carter Snead, a Notre Dame law professor who has studied abortion and bioethics, said Blackmun's opinion was wrong to dismantle state anti-abortion laws so sweepingly.
"One key virtue of democracy is that, win or lose, the outcomes are generally seen as legitimate because all of the competing sides have had their say," Snead said in an e-mail. "In Roe, the court short-circuited this process entirely, and handed a near total victory to one side of a bitterly contested question on the gravest of matters."
Snead said abortion opponents have an enduringly compelling argument - "that the smallest, weakest, and most unwanted nevertheless have a claim on us." But he said this argument can't be translated into public policy without a change in the Supreme Court's makeup.
Looking ahead, there's no clear path toward an easing of the debate. Some activists and politicians say common ground could be found in a broad new campaign to curtail unintended pregnancies, but many anti-abortion leaders have shown little interest in this.
Some abortion opponents, such as Serrin Foster of Feminists for Life, urge bipartisan efforts to support pregnant young women as they pursue careers or education, so they don't feel financial pressure to have an abortion. But supporters of legal access to abortion look askance at such proposals if they are coupled with calls to take abortion decision-making out of a woman's hands.
For Carrie Gordon Earll, now senior policy analyst for the conservative ministry Focus on the Family, that Roe-established freedom of choice once seemed logical. She got pregnant in 1981 while attending a Christian college and opted to have an abortion.
She recently made a video expressing her regrets.
"I can look back at those 40 years and say without a doubt, the world is not a better place because of abortion, women are not in a better place," she says. "What it has created is a world where you're almost expected to abort if you're pregnant at an inopportune time."
In an interview, Earll mused on how the anti-abortion movement has persevered since Roe.
"We've had 40 years of marketing by Hollywood and the cultural elites that abortion is a good thing, and we still have a battle going on," she said. "We're holding our own."
A similar refrain of perseverance is sounded by Dr. Douglas Laube of Madison, Wis., who began performing abortions as part of his practice a year after the Roe decision.
"It was important for women to be able to legally ensure their right to make their own decision," said Laube, who is chairman of Physicians for Reproductive Health Choice. "But it served to polarize society politically."
Laube is worried by the spread of anti-abortion state laws, but encouraged by the surge of women becoming obstetrician-gynecologists - a trend he hopes will ease the shortage of abortion providers.
"I see the movement toward the religious right being countered by a growing movement among practitioners and advocates for maintaining this as legal," he said. "That means the controversy will continue. But it also means we will hold our ground."
-----
Associated Press writer Emily Wagster Pettus in Jackson, Miss., contributed to this report.
Forty years and roughly 55 million abortions later, however, the ruling's legacy is the opposite of consensus. Abortion ranks as one of the most intractably divisive issues in America, and is likely to remain so as rival camps of true believers see little space for common ground.
Unfolding events in two states illustrate the depth of the divide. In New York, already a bastion of liberal abortion laws, Gov. Andrew Cuomo pledged in his Jan. 9 State of the State speech to entrench those rights even more firmly. In Mississippi, where many anti-abortion laws have been enacted in recent years, the lone remaining abortion clinic is on the verge of closure because nearby hospitals won't grant obligatory admitting privileges to its doctors.
"Unlike a lot of other issues in the culture wars, this is the one in which both sides really regard themselves as civil rights activists, trying to expand the frontiers of human freedom," said Jon Shields, a professor of government at Claremont McKenna College. "That's a recipe for permanent conflict."
On another hot-button social issue - same-sex marriage - there's been a strong trend of increasing support in recent years, encompassing nearly all major demographic categories.
There's been no such dramatic shift, in either direction, on abortion.
For example, a new Pew Research Center poll finds 63 percent of U.S. adults opposed to overturning Roe, compared to 60 percent in 1992. The latest Gallup poll on the topic shows 52 percent of Americans saying abortion should be legal under certain circumstances, 25 percent wanting it legal in all cases and 20 percent wanting it outlawed in all cases - roughly the same breakdown as in the 1970s.
"There's a large share of Americans for whom this is not a black-and-white issue," said Michael Dimock, the Pew center's director. "The circumstances matter to them."
Indeed, many conflicted respondents tell pollsters they support the right to legal abortion while considering it morally wrong. And a 2011 survey of 3,000 adults by the Public Religion Research Institute found many who classified themselves as both "pro-life" and "pro-choice."
Shields, like many scholars of the abortion debate, doubts a victor will emerge anytime soon.
"There are reasonable arguments on both sides, making rationally defensible moral claims," he said.
Nonetheless, the rival legions of activists and advocacy groups on the front lines of the conflict each claim momentum is on their side as they convene symposiums and organize rallies to commemorate the Roe anniversary.
Supporters of legal access to abortion were relieved by the victory of their ally, President Barack Obama, over anti-abortion Republican Mitt Romney in November.
A key reason for the relief related to the Supreme Court, whose nine justices are believed to divide 5-4 in favor of a broad right to abortion. Romney, if elected, might have been able to appoint conservative justices who could help overturn Roe v. Wade, but Obama's victory makes that unlikely at least for the next four years.
Abortion-rights groups also were heartened by a backlash to certain anti-abortion initiatives and rhetoric that they viewed as extreme.
"Until politicians feel there's a price to pay for voting against women, they will continue to do it," said Cecile Richards, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, a lightning rod for conservative attacks because it's the leading abortion provider in the U.S.
In Missouri and Indiana, Republican candidates for the U.S. Senate lost races that their party initially expected to win after making widely criticized comments regarding abortion rights for impregnated rape victims. In Virginia, protests combined with mockery on late-night TV shows prompted GOP politicians to scale back a bill that would have required women seeking abortions to undergo a transvaginal ultrasound.
"All these things got Americans angry and got them to realize just how extreme the other side is," said Jennifer Dalven, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Reproductive Freedom Project.
"This issue will remain very divisive," she said. "But I do see this as a sea-change moment... The American public wants abortion to remain safe, legal and accessible."
However, anti-abortion leaders insist they have reason for optimism, particularly at the state level.
In the past two years, following Republican election gains in 2010, GOP-dominated state legislatures have passed more than 130 bills intended to reduce access to abortion. The measures include mandatory counseling and ultrasound for women seeking abortions, bans on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, curbs on how insurers cover the procedure, and new regulations for abortion clinics.
The ACLU and other abortion-rights groups are challenging several of the laws in court, notably the 20-week ban. Yet already this year, Republican leaders in Texas, Mississippi and elsewhere are talking about new legislative efforts to restrict abortion.
Mississippi's Gov. Phil Bryant says he wants to end abortion in the state and is eager for the remaining clinic, the Jackson Women's Health Organization, to close.
"My goal, of course, is to shut it down," Bryant told reporters on Jan. 10. "If I had the power to do so legally, I'd do so tomorrow."
The clinic is a steady target of anti-abortion protesters who take turns praying, singing hymns and confronting patients. Its administrator, Diane Derzis, says the three principal physicians on her staff have been unable to get admitting privileges at area hospitals due to pressure from the anti-abortion movement.
Such developments hearten Charmaine Yoest, president of Americans United for Life, one of the groups most active in proposing anti-abortion bills for state legislatures to consider.
"Within the context of Roe, we have been remarkably successful in terms of expanding the legal protection of human life," Yoest said. "We're working to make Roe irrelevant."
Yoest's optimism derives partly from her belief that young Americans are increasingly skeptical about abortion, though polls give mixed verdicts on this matter.
"It is really easy to explain the pro-life position to a child - it's hard to explain to them why you should kill a baby before it's born," Yoest said.
Supporters of legal access to abortion dispute the notion of swelling anti-abortion sentiment among young people, but some activists do sense a gap in terms of political intensity.
"I have enormous hope in this millennial generation - they're progressive, thoughtful and they identify in their pro-choice values," said Nancy Keenan, who will soon be stepping down after eight years as president of NARAL Pro-Choice America.
"But there is an intensity gap - they don't act on those values," Keenan said. "The other side votes their anti-choice, pro-life values - it's at the top of their political activity."
She drew a contrast with the push for same-sex marriage.
"With marriage equality, gays and lesbians are fighting for something they didn't have," Keenan said. "In the case of reproductive rights, you're trying to maintain the status quo. The millennial generation doesn't see it as threatened."
Another difference: the campaign for same-sex marriage has benefited greatly from personal testimony by gay couples, speaking out in legislative hearings and campaign videos. By contrast, although millions of American women have had abortions, relatively few speak out publicly to defend their decisions.
"If you know some women, you know a woman who's had abortion," said Dr. Anne Davis, who is medical director for Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health and provides abortions as part of her practice in New York City.
"But you do not see women talking about their abortions," Davis said. "They do what they need to do and move on. I can't blame people for that."
Davis, who learned abortion techniques during her residency at the University of Washington in the mid-'90s, said the procedure has become increasingly safe - notably with the advent of abortions via medication. She expressed dismay at the spate of restrictive laws that she and many of her fellow physicians view as ill-founded.
"Initially, we'd say, 'That's ridiculous' - and now we're stuck with them," she said.
Despite all the furor, abortion has been commonplace in the post-Roe era, with about one-third of adult women estimated to have had at least one in their lifetime.
Of the roughly 1.2 million U.S. women who have abortions each year, half are 25 or older, about 18 percent are teens, and the rest are 20-24. About 60 percent have given birth to least one child prior to getting an abortion. A disproportionately high number are black or Hispanic; and regardless of race, high abortion rates are linked to economic hard times.
The Roe opinion, written by Justice Harry Blackmun, asserted that the right to privacy extended to a women's decision on whether to end a pregnancy. States have been allowed to restrict abortion access at late stages of pregnancy, but only if they make exceptions for protecting the mother's health - and the net result has been one of the most liberal abortion policies in the world.
At the time of Roe v. Wade, abortion was legal on request in four states, allowed under limited circumstances in about 16 others, and outlawed under nearly all circumstances in the other states, including Texas, where the Roe case originated.
One of the most liberal members of the current Supreme Court, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, is among those who have questioned the timing of the Roe ruling and suggested that it contributed to the ongoing bitter debate.
"It's not that the judgment was wrong, but it moved too far too fast," Ginsburg said at Columbia University last year.
She said the court could have put off dealing with abortion while the state-by-state process evolved or it could have struck down just the Texas law, which allowed abortions only to save a mother's life.
Asked about Ginsburg's musings, Cecile Richards of Planned Parenthood said the Roe ruling was critically needed to curb unsafe abortions in states where the procedure was outlawed.
"Women were paying the price with their lives," she said.
However, Carter Snead, a Notre Dame law professor who has studied abortion and bioethics, said Blackmun's opinion was wrong to dismantle state anti-abortion laws so sweepingly.
"One key virtue of democracy is that, win or lose, the outcomes are generally seen as legitimate because all of the competing sides have had their say," Snead said in an e-mail. "In Roe, the court short-circuited this process entirely, and handed a near total victory to one side of a bitterly contested question on the gravest of matters."
Snead said abortion opponents have an enduringly compelling argument - "that the smallest, weakest, and most unwanted nevertheless have a claim on us." But he said this argument can't be translated into public policy without a change in the Supreme Court's makeup.
Looking ahead, there's no clear path toward an easing of the debate. Some activists and politicians say common ground could be found in a broad new campaign to curtail unintended pregnancies, but many anti-abortion leaders have shown little interest in this.
Some abortion opponents, such as Serrin Foster of Feminists for Life, urge bipartisan efforts to support pregnant young women as they pursue careers or education, so they don't feel financial pressure to have an abortion. But supporters of legal access to abortion look askance at such proposals if they are coupled with calls to take abortion decision-making out of a woman's hands.
For Carrie Gordon Earll, now senior policy analyst for the conservative ministry Focus on the Family, that Roe-established freedom of choice once seemed logical. She got pregnant in 1981 while attending a Christian college and opted to have an abortion.
She recently made a video expressing her regrets.
"I can look back at those 40 years and say without a doubt, the world is not a better place because of abortion, women are not in a better place," she says. "What it has created is a world where you're almost expected to abort if you're pregnant at an inopportune time."
In an interview, Earll mused on how the anti-abortion movement has persevered since Roe.
"We've had 40 years of marketing by Hollywood and the cultural elites that abortion is a good thing, and we still have a battle going on," she said. "We're holding our own."
A similar refrain of perseverance is sounded by Dr. Douglas Laube of Madison, Wis., who began performing abortions as part of his practice a year after the Roe decision.
"It was important for women to be able to legally ensure their right to make their own decision," said Laube, who is chairman of Physicians for Reproductive Health Choice. "But it served to polarize society politically."
Laube is worried by the spread of anti-abortion state laws, but encouraged by the surge of women becoming obstetrician-gynecologists - a trend he hopes will ease the shortage of abortion providers.
"I see the movement toward the religious right being countered by a growing movement among practitioners and advocates for maintaining this as legal," he said. "That means the controversy will continue. But it also means we will hold our ground."
-----
Associated Press writer Emily Wagster Pettus in Jackson, Miss., contributed to this report.
What "deep divide?" The majority of Americans support women's rights, including the right of choice. A minority of Americans do not, but have managed to impose their views on the majority through religious extremism, deep funding, and violence upon those who both support and provide that right. That minority is dwindling, and so have stepped up both their efforts and their rhetoric - society is evolving, whether they like it or not, and we're seeing the throes of throwbacks. They, too, shall pass.
Here's the thing that so frequently gets lost in the debate. Abortions didn't suddenly just spring into existence with the Roe ruling. They happened, and were much more common than you'd think. The problem is, they were extremely dangerous to the mother, and there was a 50-50 chance she would die as a result. Whether it was from ingesting toxic chemicals to try to induce a miscarriage, intentionally physically attacking their abdominal area, grabbing a wire coat hanger, or paying a visit to a back alley "doctor," it was a high risk gamble. But desperate women who felt they had no alternative for whatever reason still took that gamble, and many many of them lost their lives as a result. Even if a woman was able to get to a hospital in time to possibly treat the complications from an illegal abortion, they were often refused treatment because they had elected to undergo an illegal procedure.
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Is this the world we want to go back to? Women who don't feel like they have any other choice will still terminate their pregnancies if Roe is overturned, just as they did before. The difference is, the mortality rate since Roe has dropped dramatically, now that women are able to receive proper medical care both during and after the procedure. That alone is reason enough to let the ruling stand.
Â
You're not going to stop abortions from happening. At least have the decency to make sure they're as safe as possible.
@Mikeftm
Quote from a reformed abortionist:
The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200 â 250 annually. The figure constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalizing abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization.
The Second Key Tactic was to Play the Catholic Card
We systematically vilified the Catholic Church and its âsocially backward ideasâ and picked on the Catholic hierarchy as the villain in opposing abortion. This theme was played endlessly. We fed the media such lies as âwe all know that opposition to abortion comes from the hierarchy and not from most Catholicsâ and âPolls prove time and again that most Catholics want abortion law reform.â And the media drum-fired all this into the American people, persuading them that anyone opposing permissive abortion must be under the influence of the Catholic hierarchy and that Catholics in favor of abortion are enlightened and forward-looking. An inference of this tactic was that there were no non-Catholic groups opposing abortion. The fact that other Christian as well as non-Christian religions were (and still are) monolithically opposed to abortion was constantly suppressed, along with pro-life atheistsâ opinions.
The Third Key Tactic was the Denigration and Suppression of all Scientific Evidence that Life Begins at Conception
I am often asked what made me change my mind. How did I change from prominent abortionist to pro-life advocate? In 1973, I became director of obstetrics of a large hospital in New York City and had to set up a perinatal research unit, just at the start of a great new technology which we now use every day to study the fetus in the womb. A favorite pro-abortion tactic is to insist that the definition of when life begins is impossible; that the question is a theological or moral or philosophical one, anything but a scientific one. Fetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy.
@cheekygesturton @Mikeftm The "quotes" of Dr. Bernard Nathanson are often cited by pro-life supporters as truthful, even though they've been debunked repeatedly.
Here's what kills me about conservatives.....
Â
Going to have an abortion? Whore! Murderer! Vermin!!!!!!
Â
Hey! You had your baby! That's great! However, we don't support handing out money to unwed mothers, poor families, etc. Please, just get out of our sight so we can forget you. Thanks for not killing yor baby though!
Â
Â
I was pro choice until I had children of my own. That changed everything. Â Abortion should be safe and legal in only extreme circumstances - life of mom, etc. Â
@ponyupsir  I respect your views. However, there are people out that that don't even recognize the life of the mother as a reason for abortion.Â
 @path_tech Then let those bozos pay for all the welfare assistance those unwanted children will need. That will change their tune real fast!!
When I was a teen, I had a broader view on the subject. Â But after seeing my first child through ultrasound, and then the subsequent birth, Â I was completely convinced that those who would murder a pre-born are no less guilty than the Nazis who inspired such a sanitized holocaust.
http://www.toomanyaborted.com/?page_id=1237
 @cheekygesturton That kind of talk is exactly why your side is seen as fanatical and extreme.
"Bureau of Social Hygiene" Â Â Google: Rockefeller and Sanger, and you'll learn a little bit about some racist eugenicists.
The richest among us are the most vile!!!
@cheekygesturton Your eugenics have deteriorated as you grew older...
My wife and I would not have an abortion. But I am glad that the government does not have the right to control what women do with their bodies. If you happen to be pro-birth, than have a baby; otherwise, mind your own business.
Let's have a quick poll...
Â
At 2 months of pregnancy is it a child / Â baby
Â
yes or no?
 @DeadRabitz Yes
 @DeadRabitz No, it is not viable at that stage.Â
 @DeadRabitz yes
KOMO is added it again.CENSORSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Â
Added again? Spanish is obviously your ONLY language. LOL....what a pathetic, limp dicked troll. Your boyfriend must be proud.
Can"t be sure from screen names, but it sounds like a bunch of men telling women what they can do with their body.
 @al_wa Maybe they should be explaining why they refuse to use condoms.
A few questions for those of you who consider yourself pro-abortion:
Â
1)     Do you believe abortion should be legal all the way to the 9th month? If not, how long? Point of viability you sayâ¦when is that, and who are you to decide? Even a 2-year old child is not viable if the parent does not feed it. Itâs helpless on its own.
2)Â Â Â Â Â For those of you who believe abortion should be legal for all 9 months, what changes during that 12â journey down the birth canal? Why is that âglob of cellsâ that now all of a sudden popped out âlegitimateâ?
3)Â Â Â Â Â For all of you, why do you act so surprised and wring your hands when the Josh Powells of this world kill their own kids with no remorse? Or when people shoot little kids at school in cold blood?
4)Â Â Â Â Â Finally, and most importantly, for those of you who profess to believe in God: Are you prepared to answer similar questions someday in front of Him?
Â
Donât get me wrong, I am not judging you, just merely giving you some things to think about. Because you can bet that I have thought about #4 long and hard, and it definitely affects how I answer the other questions.
@James127 Tis a shame that your mother did not use birth control....
 @clem77 Yours as well..
 @James127 Very few people will be for abortion rights in the third trimester. As discussed in Roe v. Wade, there is an issue of viability of the fetus. That is generally considered to be 24 to 28 weeks. The only exceptions for late term abortion, as provided for in most state laws, is in special cases such as when the health of the mother is gravely threatened.
@James127 I love how you label us as "pro-abortion" and not "pro-choice". I am anti abortion but I don't believe I have the right to step between a woman and her doctor. I want less government in our lives. Don't you?
I'm labeled "anti-choice" instead of "pro-life". I'm all for choice, prior to conception.
Â
Generally, I'm all for less government also, but this is one area where I feel laws are needed. We treat life as expendable, then wonder why society is so out of control.
Â
Finally, I find it ironic that so many say this is a choice strictly between the woman and her doctor. The man has no say, unless, of course, SHE decides to keep it. Then, all of a sudden, he's on the hook for 1/2 support. How is that fair?
@James127 I just have to say, James, your arguments are great and are the reason I come around occasionally. Too many comments are just silly uneducated talking point bombs. Thanks my friend!
@James127 Great comments James. I think our government treats life as expendable getting us into wars we do not have a need to. Of course, our government is us. I go back to a collection of cells. Once the collection of cells can survive without assistance outside the uterus, then abortion should not be an option except for the life of the mother. We can agree there. As for child support, It takes two to make a child. Us guys might have to pay child support but at least we don't have to bear the child. I think I would rather pay the bucks than go through that process!
 @James127 The question has not been about a fully formed fetus.  It isn't legal in any state.  For the most part, about 4 months seems to be the norm, some shorter some longer but not really by much.  The time period chosen is not random, it is based on survivability of said fetus.  I am fine with the laws as they currently stand with the exception of a few states that place so many hurdles that it takes the option away from people.
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I pose this question. Â Wouldn't it be better to teach about birth control, ie pills, condoms and such and push for responsibility with regard to sex. Â Real sex education for kids, since states with abstinence only see a higher rate of teen pregnancy than ones with out. Â Wouldn't it be better to prevent abortion by education people and pushing for birth control?
 @DeadRabitz  @James127 It is also ironic that the states with the greatest barriers to abortion also seem to have the least amount of birth control education
My view on abortions is exactly the same as my view on the death penalty. I would rather live in a world where it's not necessary, but I'm glad we have it when it is necessary.
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My fiance' has slightly different, but very observant view. 'If Roman Catholic and Baptist men could get pregnant, abortions would be free and the morning after pill would be available in vending machines at sports bars."
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Kinda hard to argue that point.
Ha ha Republicans. You're party is doomed. It's only been 2 months are you've already stop caring about why you lost the last election decisively. By all means, please keep talking about abortion. Please proceed Republicans.  Â
 @lakeview Out of curiosity...who still controls the House by more votes than they did before the last election?
@sometimesright @lakeview Actually, the Republicans have LESS seats than they did last Congress. And Democratic congressional candidates received almost 2 million MORE votes than Republican congressional candidates last election. The reason there are more Republican legislators than Democratic is due to simple gerrymandering. Of course, if the shoe was on the other foot, the Dems would have conducted the gerrymandering. Politics at its worse.
 @sometimesright  @lakeview Does it matter, it's all gridlocked. Â
 @lakeview Decisively? 51% is a landslide?
Abortions were around before Roe V Wade. Since then they've been safe.
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 @the unvarnished truth  @Sanctuary Not babies, but fetuses.Â
 @the unvarnished truth  @Sanctuary Actually that is the number since roe v. wade not a yearly sum.  And they were not babies yet.
Publish all 55 millions names of the mothers who killed their Children.Â
Include their address.Â
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"We must protect our Children from the scentless killing"Â Quote Barrack ObamaÂ
@Tacobender50 Huh? First, why? What would that gain you, exactly? See, when you say that, what you're really saying is "we must shame them, intimidate them, hunt them down." That's all that information would be good for, really. So, I have to ask - what's your motivation? Do you want to harm them? Kill them, perhaps, in the name of ... what, exactly? It's certainly not the God to whom you apparently profess your worship, as He's pretty clear on the subject. You're certainly not the vessel of veangence for, well, anyone, really. So -Â why do you ask?
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Second, I highlight doubt Obama said "...the scentless killing." If you're going to quote someone, at least get it right. Unless, of course, you're quoting Obama's concern regarding Febreze-fomented homicides.
 @Tacobender50 That is right. People want to register gun owners, how about we register mothers who slaughter their innocent babies just because they made a bad choice in life.Â
@rushrules @Tacobender50 Such a silly argument. My abortion (if I were a woman and CHOSE to have one) will not hurt your child, but your gun could hurt my child.
 @Justcause  @Tacobender50 Finally the real Liberal racist comes out of the closet.Oh no, I'm offended by your insensitive speech.
 @the unvarnished truth This much IS clear....your mother should have had an abortion. You are a waste of oxygen.
 @Hagar See ya........
@Tacobender50 @rushrules More simplistic, uneducated bombs. Dismissed.
 @Hagar  @Tacobender50  @rushrules You can ask the anointed one, because he just opened the flood gate with Obama care.
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By the way I never killed a sole in my life, but you did.
@Tacobender50 @rushrules Yes, I read much of the Bible. I am unfortunately a curious sort. And I always enjoy a good fiction story. I am still curious why it is okay for your guns to slaughter innocent children but it is not okay for my wife to have privacy with her doctor.
 @Hagar  @Tacobender50  @rushrules Who said you have to be Religious to be against abortion.Oh, I see you read the book
@Tacobender50 @rushrules No, a collection of cells, unable to survive on their own. Even your book of fiction, the Bible, says God breathed life into the pile of dust. Life AFTER the body was formed. And I love how people want to protect these collections of cells but don't want to provide health care for them or feed them or educate them. My favorite term to describe such people? Hypocrites.
 @Hagar  @rushrules  @Tacobender50 Keep talking, you still murdered a human being.