Scouts considering retreat from no-gays policy

NEW YORK (AP) - The Boys Scouts of America is considering a dramatic retreat from its controversial policy of excluding gays as leaders and youth members.
Under the change now being discussed, the different religious and civic groups that sponsor Scout units would be able to decide for themselves how to address the issue - either maintaining an exclusion of gays or opening up their membership.
Monday's announcement of the possible change comes after years of protests over the policy - including petition campaigns that have prompted some corporations to suspend donations to the Boy Scouts.
Under the proposed change, said BSA spokesman Deron Smith, "the Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members, or parents."
The Boys Scouts, which celebrated its 100th anniversary in 2010, has long excluded both gays and atheists. Smith said a change in the policy toward atheists was not being considered, and that the BSA continued to view "Duty to God" as one of its basic principles.
Protests over the no-gays policy gained momentum in 2000, when the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the BSA's right to exclude gays. Scout units lost sponsorships by public schools and other entities that adhered to nondiscrimination policies, and several local Scout councils made public their displeasure with the policy.
More recently, amid petition campaigns, shipping giant UPS Inc. and drug-manufacturer Merck announced that they were halting donations from their charitable foundations to the Boy Scouts as long as the no-gays policy was in force.
Also, local Scout officials drew widespread criticism in recent months for ousting Jennifer Tyrrell, a lesbian mom, as a den leader of her son's Cub Scout pack in Ohio and for refusing to approve an Eagle Scout application by Ryan Andresen, a California teen who came out as gay last fall.
"An end to this ban will restore dignity to countless families across the country, my own included, who simply wanted to take part in all scouting has to offer," Tyrrell said. "My family loved participating in scouting, and I look forward to the day when we might once again be able to take part."
Many of the protest campaigns, including one seeking Tyrrell's reinstatement, had been waged with help from the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation.
"The Boy Scouts of America have heard from scouts, corporations and millions of Americans that discriminating against gay scouts and scout leaders is wrong," said Herndon Graddick, GLAAD's president. "Scouting is a valuable institution, and this change will only strengthen its core principles of fairness and respect."
The Scouts had reaffirmed the no-gays policy as recently as last year, and appeared to have strong backing from conservative religious denominations - notably the Mormons, Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists - which sponsor large numbers of Scout units. Under the proposed change, they could continue excluding gays.
Smith said the change could be announced as early as next week, after BSA's national board concludes a regularly scheduled meeting on Feb. 6. The meeting will be closed to the public.
Were the change adopted, Smith said, "there would no longer be any national policy regarding sexual orientation, and the chartered organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with each organization's mission, principles, or religious beliefs.
"BSA members and parents would be able to choose a local unit that best meets the needs of their families," he said. "Under this proposed policy, the BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization's mission, principles, or religious beliefs."
The announcement came shortly after new data showed that membership in the Cub Scouts - the BSA's biggest division - dropped sharply last year, and was down nearly 30 percent over the past 14 years.
According to figures provided by the organization, Cub Scout ranks dwindled by 3.4 percent, from 1,583,166 in 2011 to 1,528,673 in 2012. That's down from 2.17 million in 1998.
The Boy Scouts attribute the decline largely to broad social changes, including the allure of video games and the proliferation of youth sports leagues and other options for after-school activities.
However, critics of the Scouts suggest that its recruitment efforts have been hampered by high-profile controversies - notably the court-ordered release of files dealing with sex abuse allegations and persistent protests over the no-gays policy.
The BSA's overall "traditional youth membership" - Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturers - totaled 2,658,794 in 2012, compared to more than 4 million in peak years of the past. There were 910,668 Boy Scouts last year, a tiny increase from 2011, while the ranks of Venturers - a program for youths 14 and older- declined by 5.5 percent.
In addition to flak over the no-gays policy, the Scouts have been buffeted by multiple court cases related to past allegations of sexual abuse by Scout leaders, including those chronicled in long-confidential records that are widely known as the "perversion files."
Through various cases, the Scouts have been forced to reveal files dating from the 1960s to 1991. They detailed numerous cases where abuse claims were made and Boy Scout officials never alerted authorities and sometimes actively sought to protect the accused.
The Scouts are now under a California court order, affirmed this month by the state Supreme Court, to turn over sex-abuse files from 1991 through 2011 to the lawyers for a former Scout who claims a leader molested him in 2007, when he was 13. It's not clear how soon the files might become public.
The BSA has apologized for past lapses and cover-ups, and has stressed the steps taken to improve youth protection policy. Since 2010, for example, it has mandated that any suspected abuse be reported to police.
Under the change now being discussed, the different religious and civic groups that sponsor Scout units would be able to decide for themselves how to address the issue - either maintaining an exclusion of gays or opening up their membership.
Monday's announcement of the possible change comes after years of protests over the policy - including petition campaigns that have prompted some corporations to suspend donations to the Boy Scouts.
Under the proposed change, said BSA spokesman Deron Smith, "the Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members, or parents."
The Boys Scouts, which celebrated its 100th anniversary in 2010, has long excluded both gays and atheists. Smith said a change in the policy toward atheists was not being considered, and that the BSA continued to view "Duty to God" as one of its basic principles.
Protests over the no-gays policy gained momentum in 2000, when the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the BSA's right to exclude gays. Scout units lost sponsorships by public schools and other entities that adhered to nondiscrimination policies, and several local Scout councils made public their displeasure with the policy.
More recently, amid petition campaigns, shipping giant UPS Inc. and drug-manufacturer Merck announced that they were halting donations from their charitable foundations to the Boy Scouts as long as the no-gays policy was in force.
Also, local Scout officials drew widespread criticism in recent months for ousting Jennifer Tyrrell, a lesbian mom, as a den leader of her son's Cub Scout pack in Ohio and for refusing to approve an Eagle Scout application by Ryan Andresen, a California teen who came out as gay last fall.
"An end to this ban will restore dignity to countless families across the country, my own included, who simply wanted to take part in all scouting has to offer," Tyrrell said. "My family loved participating in scouting, and I look forward to the day when we might once again be able to take part."
Many of the protest campaigns, including one seeking Tyrrell's reinstatement, had been waged with help from the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation.
"The Boy Scouts of America have heard from scouts, corporations and millions of Americans that discriminating against gay scouts and scout leaders is wrong," said Herndon Graddick, GLAAD's president. "Scouting is a valuable institution, and this change will only strengthen its core principles of fairness and respect."
The Scouts had reaffirmed the no-gays policy as recently as last year, and appeared to have strong backing from conservative religious denominations - notably the Mormons, Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists - which sponsor large numbers of Scout units. Under the proposed change, they could continue excluding gays.
Smith said the change could be announced as early as next week, after BSA's national board concludes a regularly scheduled meeting on Feb. 6. The meeting will be closed to the public.
Were the change adopted, Smith said, "there would no longer be any national policy regarding sexual orientation, and the chartered organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with each organization's mission, principles, or religious beliefs.
"BSA members and parents would be able to choose a local unit that best meets the needs of their families," he said. "Under this proposed policy, the BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization's mission, principles, or religious beliefs."
The announcement came shortly after new data showed that membership in the Cub Scouts - the BSA's biggest division - dropped sharply last year, and was down nearly 30 percent over the past 14 years.
According to figures provided by the organization, Cub Scout ranks dwindled by 3.4 percent, from 1,583,166 in 2011 to 1,528,673 in 2012. That's down from 2.17 million in 1998.
The Boy Scouts attribute the decline largely to broad social changes, including the allure of video games and the proliferation of youth sports leagues and other options for after-school activities.
However, critics of the Scouts suggest that its recruitment efforts have been hampered by high-profile controversies - notably the court-ordered release of files dealing with sex abuse allegations and persistent protests over the no-gays policy.
The BSA's overall "traditional youth membership" - Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturers - totaled 2,658,794 in 2012, compared to more than 4 million in peak years of the past. There were 910,668 Boy Scouts last year, a tiny increase from 2011, while the ranks of Venturers - a program for youths 14 and older- declined by 5.5 percent.
In addition to flak over the no-gays policy, the Scouts have been buffeted by multiple court cases related to past allegations of sexual abuse by Scout leaders, including those chronicled in long-confidential records that are widely known as the "perversion files."
Through various cases, the Scouts have been forced to reveal files dating from the 1960s to 1991. They detailed numerous cases where abuse claims were made and Boy Scout officials never alerted authorities and sometimes actively sought to protect the accused.
The Scouts are now under a California court order, affirmed this month by the state Supreme Court, to turn over sex-abuse files from 1991 through 2011 to the lawyers for a former Scout who claims a leader molested him in 2007, when he was 13. It's not clear how soon the files might become public.
The BSA has apologized for past lapses and cover-ups, and has stressed the steps taken to improve youth protection policy. Since 2010, for example, it has mandated that any suspected abuse be reported to police.
KOMO - if you delete somebody's comment here can you please send us an email as to what it was and why you deleted it? Â Don't tell me to read the guidelines, because you leave a lot of posts on this website that are basically against your guidelines. Â thanks.
But, are the gays also retreating from their no-scouts policy?
I hope they do change the policy. Â I realize they are a private organization, but if they don't , their membership is goihg to rapidly decline. Â My 7 year old boys are in cub scouts. Â They really wanted to join, because of some of the activities. Â I struggled with whether I should let them because of disagreeing with their policy. Â But, they are just young boys and have no understanding about this other issue yet, and so I let them. Â The membership at their school has shrunk considerably, and I'm sure this is a big part of why. Â When we did the popcorn sale, which is one of their fall activities, these little boys were given a hard time by some adults, about how they'd never contribute to such an organization, getting mad at the kids -- These six and seven year olds had no idea why. Â And, none of the parents in our group think the poicy is okay or would ever want to discriminate -- quite the opposite. Â But, just having our kids be in cub scouts made people assume we must support discrimination....or we would yank them out., and I'm sure many have. Â Â We've already discussed within the pack how none of us support that policy and don't know if we should keep our kids in. when the national level has this policy, it is very diffiuclt. Â I'm sure my kids wouldn't continue past the cub scout phase if this stayed the same. Â At the same time, I didn't know another boys group that had these same combinations of activities -- community involvement, helping others, compassion for others (which this national policy seems to directly contradict), the camping and outdoor actiivities. Â My brother's were all boy scouts, (I was a girl scout) and my dad had been a pack master even. Â But, this was before any of this was an issue -- and my brothers' learned some great skills in mountaineering, search and rescue, etc. Â I recall the packs being quite large, and now, as I said so small a group for the school really. Â So, if they don't change their policies their membership is going to rapidly decline even further. Â Even the boy who recently was denied his eagle scout badge -- just insane -- talked about all the fun things he had done and how much he enjoyed being a scout. Â But, if they don't join the 21st century, Â they aren't going to exist for long -- certainly not around here....... Â whether that's their right as a private organization or not....
Oh my gosh I feel so bad for your kids, shame on those adults!
I feel for you, it's so hard when you're caught between a rock and a hard spot like that. You almost want to put up a sign that say's "We're a Scout troop that suports equality"
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 @Mickey602 If they change this policy nationally to allow that, there is no doubt we would have such signs....
This is a non issue. The Federal government has openly stated that any private organization has the right to set its own standards on who is allowed to join its membership or not.   If you don't like it, start your own private organization and join that. The church has been doing this for decades and people rarely question it. They simply go to another church. End of story.Â
 @snow surfer Theoretically you are right, and in a perfect world, that's all well and good. The problem with the "just go somewhere else" logic in this case though is there really isn't a comparable program anywhere else that teaches similar skills or has similar brand recognition. While they cannot be forced to change, nor should they in my own opinion, there is nothing wrong with putting financial and political pressure on such a significant group to get them to change their ways.
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Some local units have a long tradition of not being exclusive. The only real problem has been the head offices getting a whiff of athiest or gay and handing down the ban hammer from way up on high with no regard for what the local troop thinks of the situation.
 @snow surfer Maybe you should have actually read the article, because apparently it's become a problem for the BSA and now they want to change their rules because they are losing money. It's amazing how organizations can always find a way to change their rules when the rules start to hurt  their pocketbook.
If the BSA wants to discriminate against gays and atheists, then our military needs to stop giving bonus points to BSA members.
I don't have a problem with adult gays being involved in scouting just as long as they understand the they cannot use it as a opportunity to Indoctrinate or introduce young boys to the gay life style. Kids in that age group need to be off limits to sexual influence either way. Let kids be kids.
 @Ankle Biter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CstD6O95L-o
 @Ankle Biter The gay lifestyle? Pray tell, what exactly does this "gay lifestyle" entail? Men cooking for other men? Men doing laundry for other men? The HORROR! What a tired, meaningless phrase.
@Ankle Biter It hurts being that stupid right?
 @Common Sense Amazing how many liberals liked your comment. Perhaps I should make an attempt at translation:
The stupidity that you are referring to is that anybody can think that young impressionable youth can spend any amount of time with an adult in a leadership position and not be influenced by that leader's lifestyle and moral convictions. Of course the BSA knows this and since they do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle, they have no interest in allowing this influence inside their organization.
I never said that the BSA doesn't have a "right to their beliefs" and I'm not harassing the BSA, I just simply replied with yes "my opinion"Â to a post you made.
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 @Mickey602 As much as you would like to think that everything in your post is a fact, it is merely your opinion. And you have every right to it. The BSA has every right to their beliefs also, so my guess is that you will never be affiliated with them. They will never harass you for your beliefs, and it would be kind if you extended them the same courtesy.
@acepaul @Common Sense
Itâs not like theyâre going to have classes on how to be homosexual for pits sakes. Â Itâs not a cult, you canât be ârecruitedâ into being gay, you are either born that way or youâre not just like every other God given human trait. Â
Oh and just because someone is Gay doesnât make them amoral. Â Again their sins are no better or worse in Gods eyes then anyone elseâs. I mean if youâre going to judge people like that then they shouldnât allow divorced people, or adulterous people, or people that have any impure thoughts to join or volunteer either. Â
You know what I think is very interesting is the fact supposedly they are a "Godly organization" but yet don't allow atheists to join. Part of being a good Christian is spreading the Word and love of God and there's no better way to do that than to welcome non-believers to be around you and other believers to share your love of God. Â
 @Mickey602 That's exactly what I thought. If they believe so strongly, they should be happy to share their belief with others. Maybe they can "save" an atheist or two.
How incredibly sad that the thought of losing federal dollars would compromise belief's and standing up for what the organization and the members believe in.  Yes (for all you embracing homosexuality) there are a few people left out there that don't agree with the gay lifestyle and subscribe to "traditional" family values.  What I enjoy the most  are the "bigot" remarks when someone doesn't agree with the "gay" lifestyle or homosexuality (see below). For those that believe that my views are wrong please enlighten me and provide insight in some other areas we might disagree; death penalty, abortion, religion, etc.  Thanks in advance for your superior wisdom and insight.  Â
 @pacnorthwest No one says you have to embrace homosexuality. You're free to believe it's wrong as much as you wish. However, others do not hold the same belief system as you. Others do NOT believe it's wrong or immoral. They also have that right. By denying others the right to practice their beliefs, you impose your belief system upon them, which is not right.
 @pacnorthwest The definition of bigotry is 'utterly intolerant of another's creed, belief or opinion". I don't claim superior wisdom, I just consulted the dictionary. I am not intolerant of your beliefs, you're welcome to them, but you are not welcome to deny other's what they believe. When you do that, I will consider you a bigot. The BSA can continue to keep their organization closed to gay children or leaders if they so desire but if they do they should expect that it will cost them some funding.
"When you deny other's what they believe" ??????? Â Like believing in or belonging to a group/organization (with like belief's) that choose not to allow gays into their organization. Â
I do not "deny" them their beliefs, but if they chose to remain bigots, they should expect to lose funding. I am not demanding they allow gay people entrance to the organization, they just should expect to suffer the consequences of their bigotry if they continue to preach it.
Are they going to have a separate tent for the "gays"??
Simple depressing, there will be an earthquake soon - it will be the greatest generation rolling over in their graves.
This is probably too little, and far too late...
Why don't they just abolish both boy and girl scouts and call it uniscouts or just scouts. That would cover everything and everyone who wants to join.
 @missyk The Girl Scouts have been reluctant to partner with Boy Scouts due to the Boy Scouts exclusion of gays. This could change that.Â
 @Jerrie  @missyk Boy Scouts does have a program for both boys and girls. It can be joined at the age of 14 and is called venturing.
what a novel concept! sounds good to me but i am sure there are many who find in offensive or otherwise problematic for a host of reasons both real and imagined.
Guess your s*^t out of luck if your a gay atheist...
Why not create the GSA and LSA.   Gay Scouts of America! and Lesbian Scouts of America !I mean we have Girl scouts, we have boy Scouts. Why does everyone have to be on the same team all the time?
 @Rick4001CS Exactly what I said! Join your own damn team. So tired of people always having to blend in with others. Its utter nonsense.Â
@snow surfer @Rick4001CS Wow, I'll bet you wished blacks still had to sit in the back of buses and women still weren't allowed to vote either.
No one's forcing them to change, they just value money and membership #'s more apparently.
Apples and oranges my friend, gender vs sexual orientation
 @Mickey602 WHAT?!?! BSA would be heterosexual boys GSA would be homosexual boys.
 @justmyopinion They are not being intolerant or prejudging at all. Simply at the worst the could be called exclusionary, but this does not make one a bigot.
@snow surfer I do try to teach my child to stand up for what she believes in especially though example and so far I seem to be doing a pretty good job at it I think. She has a heart of gold and doesn't seem to judge others by size, race, sexual preference or income level. She just looks at people as people and tries to help out and support anyone she can.
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We are all sinners in this world and no oneâs sins are any better or worse than anyone elseâs. A sin is a sin is a sin theyâre all equal in God's eyes and He's the ONLY one that should judge us for them.
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No one is forcing the Scouts to change, apparently though they want the money and the membership numbers more than their pious beliefs. You're always welcome to start your own group and see how far it takes you because apparently more and more people are finding out homosexuals aren't actually any different from heterosexuals, they both love and sin every single day.
 @Mickey602 The purpose is simply that people have a right to spend time doing things with people of the same belief or interest as them.  Maybe its time you teach your children to stand up for their beliefs, instead of having to sacrifice all of it for the name of diversity( which personally I consider as a total marketing fraud).
 @komotriedtosilenceme People call them bigots because they meet the definition of a bigot. What would you have us call them? Open, generous and loving? No... they are bigots, simple as that.
@komotriedtosilenceme
Well apparently this particular guideline turned out to be not so important after all.
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Oh and didn't lable anyone as a bigot and I have absolutely no desire to create a new organization
 @Mickey602 Because the BSA has maintained the principle that they do not allow homosexuals. There are in this world organizations that like to maintain their founding guidelines. Why label someone a bigot because they do not share the same opinion or philosophies as you? If you want to create an organization that allows this do.
And that would be needed why? What would be the point or the purpose? Our children should be leaning to accept and work with others differences.
This comment has been deleted
 @nwlib Plenty of people have worked hard behind the scenes for years for this change. It's not like the entire organization was in favor of excluding gays - and then suddenly switched.Â
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Also every youth organization has struggled with child molesters - and they've gotten smarter about it over the years. Unfortunately, people who want to prey on children sign up to be camp counselors, scout leaders, etc. There is a lot more awareness now - and much stricter policies for dealing with it. That is true in the BSA, YMCA, GSA, etc.Â
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The folks who have always advocated walking away from scouts don't understand that they would simply be rewarding the people they most despise. In this case you'd be handing significant assets (think scout camps) to the LDS church and others - who would continue to benefit from them - while remaining completely untouched and untroubled by the disappearance of those pesky liberal secularists.Â
Why do we need to know a person's sexual orientation in order to allow them to be leaders of an organization that provides children with a place to learn and grow? In my mind, it's wrong to exclude people who are gay, or athiest, or fat or skinny, or married, or single. All that is really required is people who have a heart to work with children and show that they have a good moral compass. I don't need to know who is sleeping with who. The leaders need to keep their private life private, that's all that is really required. If you want to kiss your spouse good bye in front of the kids, that's fine with me, I don't care if you're straight or gay, but if you're going to get into a big lip lock then do it some place away from the kids. What is so hard about that? Why can't people will use common sense, and if they prove not to be responsible, then deal with it on a case by case basis. You can't tell by looking at someone whether they are pedophiles....
 @justmyopinion And if you want to charter a youth organization yourself with those founding principles, go for it. Not everybody believes the same way and all should have the right to form youth organizations centered around their morals and beliefs.
 @acepaul It sounds to me like the BSA has decided their morals aren't quite as important as they thought they were.
 @justmyopinion It is irrelevant because, at least for now, a private organization has the right to a set of beliefs and moral convictions, and the right to act on them. The BSA is not a government or publicly funded organization. Nobody is stopping people from forming other youth organizations with different beliefs.
People are so very quick to play the "bigot" card. Yet those who cry the loudest are usually poor practitioners of their own stated beliefs. Just because a group of people have beliefs about certain lifestyles does not make them bigots. Now if a group outwardly condemns people for their lifestyle or beliefs, especially in a negative and hateful fashion, I would then agree that the word bigot applies. Reading the opinions on this forum and other places makes it very clear that the bigotry does not lie on the side that supports the BSA.
Part of being in the Boy Scouts is following the Scout Law: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Brave, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. I don't see how being gay or atheist goes against any of those 12 laws.
 @acepaul Irrelevant? I certainly would never consider this subject irrelevant but you obviously do. I can't understand why you wouldn't want ALL children to participate in such "healthy outdoor activities". I'm having trouble gettiing past your attitude that gay children are irrelevant and don't matter. I also would not want my children to grow up thinking being bigoted is "healthy".
 @justmyopinion I doubt that the BSA will become extinct anytime soon regardless of their beliefs. Instead of arguing about this largely irrelevant subject, perhaps we should focus on why less youth are participating in healthy outdoor activities and spending more time glued to cellphones and facebook.
 @acepaul And if they continue to remain bigoted they will become extinct. I have friends who are straight and ones who are gay. I love them all dearly, and don't think it's my job to say one is wrong and the other isn't. Someday, assuming you believe in God, people who judge others will stand before the Pearly Gates and be suprised when they have some explaining to do about the way they treated their fellow humans, or do you believe excluding gay children is not hurtful to them?
 @justmyopinion Not likely. I doubt this will amount to anything. But if it does, you are right. At least you would be right about the executive leadership that sets policy. I imagine the majority of chartered groups would keep things the same.