Government to require black boxes in all new cars
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When we talk about getting information from data recorders, we're usually talking about the "black boxes" installed in air planes. But the federal government just proposed a new standard that requires event data recorders in all new cars and light trucks weighing less than 8,500 pounds, starting September of 2014.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says the motivation is safety, but the new push is raising a lot of questions about what happens to the information.
The event data recorders, EDRs for short, are designed to record and preserve specific information during the 5 to 10 seconds before a collision, perhaps a few seconds after. How fast was the vehicle traveling? Were the brakes activated? What was the force of impact? When did the airbag deploy? Was the seat belt buckled?
Right now EDRs are voluntary. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration wants them mandatory to give crash investigators critical information that might not otherwise be available to evaluate the dynamics of a collision. The proposed regulation also requires car makers to provide commercially available tools for retrieving the black box information so the data cannot be controlled or withheld, by the manufacturer.
Safety advocates like the idea. Manufacturers say it's not necessary, since most new vehicles already have the boxes. Privacy advocates worry there are no limits on how the information can be used.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says it's investigators could only have access to your EDR data if you give permission. But the information could be obtained without your permission, by law enforcement, insurance companies and attorneys. In fact, EDR information has been used increasingly in court- to refute testimony when drivers change the facts about how a collision occurred.
Public comment on the proposal will be accepted starting Monday, Dec. 10. The comment period will only be open for 60 days. For more information and a link to add your comments, visit nhtsa.gov.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says the motivation is safety, but the new push is raising a lot of questions about what happens to the information.
The event data recorders, EDRs for short, are designed to record and preserve specific information during the 5 to 10 seconds before a collision, perhaps a few seconds after. How fast was the vehicle traveling? Were the brakes activated? What was the force of impact? When did the airbag deploy? Was the seat belt buckled?
Right now EDRs are voluntary. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration wants them mandatory to give crash investigators critical information that might not otherwise be available to evaluate the dynamics of a collision. The proposed regulation also requires car makers to provide commercially available tools for retrieving the black box information so the data cannot be controlled or withheld, by the manufacturer.
Safety advocates like the idea. Manufacturers say it's not necessary, since most new vehicles already have the boxes. Privacy advocates worry there are no limits on how the information can be used.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says it's investigators could only have access to your EDR data if you give permission. But the information could be obtained without your permission, by law enforcement, insurance companies and attorneys. In fact, EDR information has been used increasingly in court- to refute testimony when drivers change the facts about how a collision occurred.
Public comment on the proposal will be accepted starting Monday, Dec. 10. The comment period will only be open for 60 days. For more information and a link to add your comments, visit nhtsa.gov.
As along as the box is controlled entirely by the owner of the vehicle. I am buying a new vehicle within the next two years, if this thing is on my vehicle I will remove it; I don't care if the Goverenment like it or not.
There also implanting microchips in people sometime in 2014 since its now agenst the law to refuse
What do they mean going to put them in? Hell we have had them for years. Ever since the OBD-2 capable computers on cars they have had a record of your speed, braking, throttle position, engine RPM, and on and on all stored in your computer on your car. Now they want to double it? That information should be available only with a court order and only to law reinforcement agency's and no one else. Screw the insurance companies or any other noisy neighbor that wants to snoop on your driving. Every damn thing that they want these EDR's to record is ALREADY being recorded. We are being required to store information about where we go, how fast we drive, and a bunch of other things that I would consider privileged yet they are going to make us pay for the privilege so they can keep an eye on us. Â
While I fear the governmentâs use of the information that will be available I wish that was available 3 weeks agoâ¦. I was hit by an aggressive driver more than once and then he ran off. This information would really help in the prosecution of this dead bead and with it I could also force State Farm to pay what I deserve by the policy I have with them. There is a single claims adjuster in the company that will not make a parliamentary finding and get this moving. It is a double edge sword. Information is power and how it is used can be good or very bad.
This is going to happen whether people like it or not. It's like so many other things in this country, it gets shoved down your throat no matter how hard you scream. At least the politicians who wrote the constitution and the bill of rights took the time to write documents that were in the best interest of the majority of people. It's been downhill ever since. I'm sure our founding fathers would be real impressed.
How is this not a violation of our rights to privacy?
@jowsuf This is the NEW America..  The United States doesn't exist anymore.  Not since the Patriot Act was signed...
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 @deadcandance you people really do find one another on the internet, don't you.... It's almost... romantic
Lets be honest. Â This has nothing to do with allowing investigators to figure out how you wrecked yourself. Â That' is usually pretty obvious. Â
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This has everything to do with ensuring insurance companies have another avenue to not pay claims.
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@Jerome O'Neil DING DING DING DING DING!!!! You hit the nail on the head!
 @Jerome O'Neil now there might be some truth to that one
It's never been a better time to buy used cars!
Regarding the governments not new black box and other preventions of our privacy, I think they too will have the same kind of thing happening to them. All will be exposed so keep those closet doors open and fear not.
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Is there a way to delete my account here? Â Can't find anything on it.Â
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 @Yoda Nope. Like most sites, once you create an account it's there forever.
 @Derp  @Yoda If you are supposed to be Yoda, shouldn't that be something like "Delete my account, I cannot" ?
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 @Insomniac Dreams  @Derp  @Yoda Can't you just use the Force?
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At the very least, do the Darth Vader mind thing and choke the webmaster! "I find your lack of faith disturbing."
BOHICA
When a person pays $38K for a new truck, they should have some say as to whether this device is in it, or not. It is not a safety belt. It is not an airbag. It is not ABS brakes. It has nothing to do with safety. It has to do with after the fact civil litigation and criminal prosecution. Some politician somewhere got greased palms for pushing this. It is unnecessary government intrusion. I'm not even a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist, either. I'm an LEO, and I think this is big government overstepping. If the Feds say they have to be in cars, then there should be a dictating a simple way to disable it, as well. That car is my property.
 @ButtercupSprinkles You're a LEO with the name "Buttercup Sprinkles? Are you the Sheriff of Candy Land? Is deputy gum drop your sidekick?
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I do agree with you though, it's obtrusive if it is required with out notice...
@Scott  I like my name. I am comfortable with it, probably because I don't have anything to prove.Â
 @ButtercupSprinkles "That car is my property."
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If it's paid off, yes. If not, no, it absolutely is not your property.
 @Sovereign  @ButtercupSprinkles I paid cash for my 2011 vehicle. What is your argument then?
If I were living in a rental, that I did not own, I would still have Constitutional protection from unlawful search and seizure. The Gov cannot mandate a black box for my abode. Recently, MORE Constitutional protections have been extended to vehicles. I would consider this to be , if used by the Government, similar to an illegal wiretap or observation device put in place. I want to see what type of Civil Liberties issues can and may be argued here. The ability to disable a device like this should be provided as an option to the consumer.
Today I see there is another yoda. Is this a hack or could it be possible that there could be two. I do not want to be responsible for anyone else's posts.Â
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 @Yoda Can you imagine Star Wars with two Yodas
This article understates the fact that almost all newer cars already have them. I believe these black boxes have already done a great deal of good when dealing with accidents. The Toyota sudden acceleration stuff is a perfect example. The media blew the whole thing up, people claiming that their cars were accelerating on their own skyrocketed, and the black boxes proved that people were liars.Â
Those "black boxes" didn't prove anything, Toyota only released information they wanted to come out; anything that would have put blame on Toyota was obviously withheld.
Yes because our government is so very interested what Joe Schmoe does all day and how he does it. LOL
They can track me all they want, I am not doing anything illegal and I don't care if they are wasting their time on me, no paranoia here
 @Larry*X*K I'm sure the federal government will find something to pin on you if they really wanted to.
this will. certainly feed the paranoid
 @TruthinAdverts I didn't know the 4th Amendment was for the paranoid.
@Necrobio @TruthinAdverts You have to forgive Truth there Necrobio. He's one of those kool aid sippin, Obama lovin, "our government is ONLY working in our best interest" types that thinks as long as Big Brother only chips away at SMALL, unimportant sections of our Constitution....it's o.k.
 @the unvarnished truth  @Wolfen  @Necrobio Ah, my friend... I know that all sounds good in your head, but that's not what your handlers are really all about... and you are a fool to believe them.Â
 @Wolfen  @Necrobio  @TruthinAdverts and you know... it's not that I always take the side of President Obama or all actions and functions of government....Sometimes I outright disagree with both... it's just that I think the carefully thought out institution we currently have in place is a far sight better than you nuts. Hands down my friend... Hands down.Â
 @Wolfen  @Necrobio  @TruthinAdverts awww Wolfen... you disappoint me... I had a easy cheap shot at you the other day and refrained.
 @Necrobio feel free to feed away my friends
 @TruthinAdverts Nah..... Making American's tired of an abusive, overinflated and out of control government is more like it. Many are just waiting for the right spark to start a fire against Tyranny coming from a cancerous government.
 @Funky-Munky munky... "right spark to start a fire against Tyranny"... be a man and just outright say revolution against the federal government. Quit hiding behind language and just say it... I promise... I'm not going to think your lot is any "more" crazy for doing so. Are you proposing an insurrection against our government? Or claiming others will do so? Just say it... quit hiding.Â
Recording data without your knowledge is illegal. At the very least, owners need to know the devices are there. There are rules about the gathering and admissibility of evidence, and there should be for these boxes which are subject errors or tampering.
 @Common-Tater Sadly..... SCOTUS is made up of traitors to the Constitution......... Our government is the equivalent of blood sucking Vampires.....
 @Funky-Munky  @Common-Tater "blood sucking vampires"... our government is elected by its people... by you. You can pretend all you want that this isn't the case, but it most resolutely IS the case... We elect our government. The government is us.Â
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 @Necrobio  @vadersith You should question your elected officials. No problem with that at all. I have also contacted my elected officials in phone calls, email, and even in person. Yup... went right to their office in Olympia. I don't disagree with you at all on that issue. As for how people vote... perhaps some of those voters who are voting for party affiliation (as you note) are doing so in an educated fashion. I have very good friends who vote significantly differently than I do. I do not conclude they are unintelligent. I do conclude that their upbringing, family culture and influence, and life experience form how they view the topic of politics. I also recognize that we would not be America without them. That said, I do not support the views of secessionists or those calling for an overthrow of our duly elected government simply because they can't get the majority of Americans to vote with them. These people disgust me... and I will not hesitate to tell them so..It's ironic that some of them should proclaim to be such proponents of the Constitution, and yet at the same time be so blindly hateful of the people's representative government that precious document supports.
 @TruthinAdverts  @vadersith I don't think we have fallen so far as to need an open rebellion but I think there are many people that are just angry at the inaction or inefficiency of our government. Many people that vote do not understand the issues, vote based on party affiliation alone, and then continue watching American Idol (or whatever other garbage is on TV nowadays). It's a cynical point of view but as I see in every election, no one talks about the issues - they only talk about how their opponent would use a taser on a 7 year-old and is the Anti-Christ (obvious hyperbole, I know).
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Anyway, I am a strong advocate for our privacy rights and thus I am vehemently against these devices in our vehicles. I don't think I've suggested an open rebellion though. I do advocate questioning our officials and contacting them to express our concerns. I know I have.
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 @Necrobio  @vadersith I'd share some of the concerns about privacy... But the method of many of the posters on here are what I vehemently disagree with. There's one poster (at least) on here suggesting we have rebellion against our duly elected government. I simply do not agree with such confederate and traitorous views my friend.Â
 @Necrobio  @vadersith No my friend, what I'm suggesting is that you research and understand the positions of the candidates you are considering voting for... and then, if you don't like what they are doing in office, you can either (a) vote them out in the next election, or (b) have a recall... both of which of course are represented by majority vote. As for my definition of privacy... where did I say "I'm not doing anything illegal so who cares?" Someone else posted that... not me. My argument here isn't with black boxes. It's with those who would undo our representative form of government for the whims of a vocal minority.Â
 @TruthinAdverts  @vadersith But you dance around the issues - over the past decade there have been greater erosions of a person's right to privacy through various means. The use of a "black box" in a car has the potential to add to the problem. Somehow, you seem to believe that since we as a nation elected these officials that it's fine. After all, we should have thought about that when we were voting them in. Would you have excused DOMA? Would you have tolerated internment camps during WWII? Would you just blow it off as the will of the majority the McCarthy hearings in the 1950s? Or would you be vocal in your opposition of what is clearly wrong.
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There are many scholarly articles written about our reasonable expectation of privacy and what should be considered "reasonable." Your definition would be more liberal than many, I suspect, (i.e. "I'm not doing anything illegal so who cares.") but realize that many of us still value our privacy and see this as an invasion on a fundamental right set forth in the Constitution. Many are unwilling to wait until an election to be heard. That's what the 1st Amendment is for.
 @Necrobio  @vadersith As for the SCOTUS, though you do not elect them directly, you do have say in the President who, when timing presents itself, appoints them, and through your elected senators, who confirm the Supreme Court Justices
 @Necrobio  @vadersith I'd never conclude everything's working perfectly my friend, but neither I want systems enacted that are so desperate to second guess all of the decisions of our elected representatives, that they paralyze the decision making. And you are correct, you do not elect representatives from outside your given area of representation, but that is why we are called the "United" States of America, and not merely the sovereign state of Washington. We make collective decisions as a nation... thus each respective state provides its elected representatives.Â
 @TruthinAdverts  @vadersith The problem with your presumption is the following: I can vote for my 2 senators, the House member representing my district, and the President (aside from local officials). I do not have a say when it comes to the other 98 senators, the other 434 members of the House, or who sits on the Supreme Court.
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The Constitution is always under interpretation but many of the principles have been upheld for decades. It is, however, interpreted by 9 Justices that are nominated by the President and confirmed by Congress. They can make mistakes and make disastrous decisions (see Dred Scott and others). They are not infallible.
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We, as a united populace, need to be able to provide a way to prevent the system from going out of control. You cannot pretend that lobbyists, the fringes of either party, and personal interests have not had an effect on how we are governed today. It would be naive to think that everything is working perfectly.
 @Necrobio  @vadersith again Necrobio... we have the right to correct our representative government at any and every election. And you well know, the constitution is an interpreted document... always has been.
 @TruthinAdvertsÂ
thanks can i have another.... please please please...
 @TruthinAdverts  @vadersith Electing our public officials however does not give them free reign to violate our own Constitutional rights. Last I checked, the Bill of Rights do matter and we should not let them be trampled on.
 @vadersith all you need do is elect someone else. Honestly... this is how democracy works. Granted.. the majority wins... and if your voting is not in line with the majority of US citizens... too stinkin' bad!
 @TruthinAdverts Â
just because we elect them doesn't mean they work for us...you are the perfect citizen to them... bend over and say thanks can i have another...