Schram: Private gun sales need background checks too
»Play Video
SEATTLE -- Follow the gun.
That's been my mantra for quite some time in respect to helping to figure out why it's so easy for people to get a gun when they're not legally entitled to own one.
Joshua Blake was such a person.
As a felon, Blake was prohibited from owning a gun. So where then did he get the .40 caliber Smith and Wesson that he used to kill state Trooper Tony Radulescu last February?
Federal authorities believe the weapon was either passed down from Blake's father, or purchased at a Monroe gun show.
A lot of political attention and conversation has been given over to what's termed "the gun show loophole", which really comes down to the private sale of guns.
Buy a gun from a dealer and you have to go through a background check. Buy a gun from some guy in Bellevue or Bellingham, no background check, no problem.
Private gun sales should not, need not, be free of those checks.
Charging a nominal fee for a gun dealer to submit a background check on private gun sales would be easy to do.
So why isn't it done?
Because the pro-gun lobby doesn't want it and politicians remain intimidated by the pro-gun lobby.
Trooper Tony Radulescu may have died because of such stupidity, leaving authorities to little more than follow the gun.
Have something to say to Ken? Login or signup below to post a comment. Just be sure to read the rules and keep things civil. You can also e-mail him at kenschram@komo4news.com. You can also connect with Ken on Facebook.
That's been my mantra for quite some time in respect to helping to figure out why it's so easy for people to get a gun when they're not legally entitled to own one.
Joshua Blake was such a person.
As a felon, Blake was prohibited from owning a gun. So where then did he get the .40 caliber Smith and Wesson that he used to kill state Trooper Tony Radulescu last February?
Federal authorities believe the weapon was either passed down from Blake's father, or purchased at a Monroe gun show.
A lot of political attention and conversation has been given over to what's termed "the gun show loophole", which really comes down to the private sale of guns.
Buy a gun from a dealer and you have to go through a background check. Buy a gun from some guy in Bellevue or Bellingham, no background check, no problem.
Private gun sales should not, need not, be free of those checks.
Charging a nominal fee for a gun dealer to submit a background check on private gun sales would be easy to do.
So why isn't it done?
Because the pro-gun lobby doesn't want it and politicians remain intimidated by the pro-gun lobby.
Trooper Tony Radulescu may have died because of such stupidity, leaving authorities to little more than follow the gun.
Have something to say to Ken? Login or signup below to post a comment. Just be sure to read the rules and keep things civil. You can also e-mail him at kenschram@komo4news.com. You can also connect with Ken on Facebook.
I think all op-Eds need to be checked first by the feds; just in case any wrong or need-to-know information is accidentally included. If you have nothing to hide there is no reason not to allow it.
Remember, the guy in U-district and the guy in Colorado were both legal gun owners. Regulation will not make you safer. if you want a fighting chance, be prepared, carry - if you are proficient - and assume that other people have guns (including the sob that just cut you off in traffic). There are 300 million privately owned fire arms in the US. There is no way you (or government) can get your arms (as in extremity) around controlling this. Violence is a fact of life, I don't like it either, but I don't want to fully outsource self defense to the government.
 @Komo Dragon Statistically, those private citizens who "carry" are more likely to shoot a family member or loved one - or have their own gun used against them somehow - than they are to protect themselves or a loved one from attack. So how is this sort of "preparation" protecting anyone?
Would you please point to the source of your stistical fact?There have been numerous articles written to counter your facts.
 @JLS1950  @Komo Dragon Is there proof to that statement or... is this just lock step in evaluating something to the likes of... those with a car are more apt to be in a car accident?
This young lady defended herself and loved one. http://news.yahoo.com/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder-911-operators-okay-091106413.html There are numerous instances recently where victims have defended themselves with a firearm from these home invasions. I will share this again, for your viewing pleasure. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm
 @JLS1950  @d_2  @Komo Dragon But thats the point. If there were a simple solution we would have done it by now. I hear people talk about closing the fabled "gun show loophole" or registering guns etc, all of which won't have much affect on the problem. You are right, we need to find solutions but if we did all these things will it really do much to stop criminals from getting guns? Not really. I wish it would as I'd rather not have to worry about criminals having guns but its just not the case.
 @SeattleJoe  @d_2  @JLS1950  @Komo Dragon Okay, Joe, since you seem to know so much, please explain precisely how the 80% of crime-related guns obtained from "family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source" got into the hands of those purveyors in the first place... and how we can STOP THAT!!!
Â
Because all I am hearing so far is a bunch of excuses for why we "can't" change an unacceptable situation!
 @d_2  @JLS1950  @Komo Dragon While I wish the data were more current there sure was a lot of interesting stuff. Near the bottom of the page a few things popped out:
Â
From 1993 through 1997, less than 1% of serious nonfatal violent victimizations resulted in gunshot wounds.
The number of gunshot wounds from assaults treated in hospital emergency departments fell from 64,100 in 1993 to 39,400 in 1997, a 39% decline.
Offenders
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
*a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
*a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
*family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun.
Â
Analysis of this would indicate:
1. 99% of serious nonfatal violent victimizations do not involve gun shots
2. less than 2% came from gun shows. So all the screaming about the gun show loophole would fix almost nothing. Now theres a place to throw our money and efforts, if we want to waste it of course.
3. About 1/8th criminals were carrying a gun when they committed their crime. Not as much as one would believe from the press, but too many regardless. Interestingly, we had the "Assault weapons ban" and all the hoopla around it for something that accounts for 2% of the guns used in crime. Another example of a waste of time and money.
Â
Overall you see the bs that JLS and related ilk post but when confronted with the facts they still won't believe it or will write them off for one made up reason or another.
 @JLS1950  @Komo Dragon Not a comprehensive debunking, but a few notes on that "stat". It was serious misrepresentation of a flawed study. The original was something more like "family or known associate", (meaning "not a total stranger,") which includes estranged spouses, rival gang-bangers, fellow criminals, etc, not just a hearts-and-butterflies loving family member. Secondly, according to GOOD research (FBI UCR, National Crime Victim Survey, and some others) there are between 1m and 2.5 million self-defenses with a gun every year, and in most of those cases no-one get shot or killed. (anecdote wise, I personally know of several self-defense situations where a gun made for a happy outcome, and not a single one of those show up on any stats anywhere). Lastly, http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2012/08/graphics-matter-year-the-fourth-updated-again.html
 @JLS1950  @Komo Dragon These claims were debunked long ago. You should catch up on modern stats.
Calling it the "gun show loophole" is a misnomer in that a resident of a state can sell a firearm to another resident without doing a criminal background check on the buyer (and without attending a gun show). unlike federal firearms licensed dealers. I think Ken is just asking that private citizens are at least subject to that burden so that this avenue of gun acquisition is denied to criminals and crazies. I agree as many have pointed out that there are probably millions of guns which are no longer traceable to one owner since they've been resold so many times. That is the elephant in the room when it comes to gun control since there is no practical way to account for them or control them.
NewsFlash! This just in....
Â
You're more likely to die in Chicago from firearm violence than a soldier in Afghanistan.
Â
Gun control at werk.
DC has the strictest rules and registration requirements in the country nevertheless the highest murder rate per capita. You wonder. On another note, annually, in the US, there are about 10,000 deaths caused by fire arms, and about 35,000 fatalities caused by motor vehicles. They are called accidents. The training needed to obtain a drivers license in this country is laughable compared to the majority of other countries, but somehow nobody finds it worrisome. Accidents? Really. I never purchased a gun without being background checked - and it doesn't bother me - but I don't believe it will change a thing.Â
The bottom line is the people who carry out these murders or mass shootings and deranged. I'm all for keeping guns out of the hands of deranged people. Requiring background checks on private transfers isn't going to work. Criminals selling guns to criminals don't care about laws. Yes, it would stop a law abiding citizen from selling to a person he doesn't know shouldn't have a firearm. In most all of the private firearm ads I see, and I see a lot, the seller requires a concealed pistol license, drivers license, and in many cases a bill of sale for personal record. A bad guy is just going to look somewhere else. It's not the law abiding citizens who are the problem, so laws meant to control those people are useless unless there is a hidden agenda.
 @Gadsden  There IS a hidden agenda...its about CONTROL not GUNS...always has been, always will BE.  Its just wrapped in the wrapper of the day...be that "for the children", "Gunshow Loophole", Assault Weapon" of whatever sob story of the day the anti-gunners think of this week.
Â
Ken lives in a utopia where CRIMINALS obey laws....Hey Ken, News Flash for you...CRIMINALS DONT OBEY LAWS...that is why we call them criminals.
Unless there is an organization putting on gun shows I'm not aware of, the gun show in Monroe requires that only members can buy firearms, and members have to prove they are legally allowed to own a firearm by providing proof of a background check.
Â
Maybe there is a real "gun show loop hole" somewhere in the US, but it's not in Washington state.
Â
I imagine that even anti-gunners don't like to be lied to.
Ya know Ken, I actually agree with you on some stuff. But this kinda tripe realy does you a diservice.
Â
Where on EARTH did you get the idea that criminals would do a background check on who they are selling stolen fireams to?
You can't possibly be that ignorant. I KNOW yer smarter than that.
Â
So what yer saying is, the law abiding citizens should be strapped with yet more government regulation that will have NO effect on the war you choose to wage.
Â
Then again, that's what you liberals do. Someone else is always accountable for anothers actions.
Â
Man up Ken! Call it for what it is. Be accountable for your war on those that are accountable. Just admit that you think the criminals should get a free pass at the honest citizens expense. For once in yer life, step back and claim yer ignorance as a badge of honor.
Â
Give yourself the next schrammy. You deserve it.
Now we know why you post things like this, Ken. Not journalistic seriousness or the seeking of solutions, but because it generates a lot of comments, as shown below, by the usual suspects.
Criminals don't usually go through the proper channels to purchase guns and so there again you are talking about people who will get around the system. The only thing you will have is responsible owners following the rules and those who use guns in the comission of crimes thumbing their nose at the process. There are plenty of ways for those who break the law to get their hands on guns. The government agencies are never going to be able to control everything 100%
If only criminals would obey the law, right Ken. Put one plus one together over and over again and eventually you will finally figure out the sum is two. Right.......Ken?  Please keep trying. At some point you will realize that a criminal is not deterred by any law. That is why they are criminals.
While I agree with you, Ken, gun running has been around a loooooong time.Â
Even if licensed gun dealers ran background checks they still wouldn't account for the thousands upon thousands of guns that have been sold between private parties with the serial numbers ground off or replaced.Â
Â
I cannot imagine how it would be possible to set standards for private sellers/buyers.Â
Â
I'm guessing that since their inception (guns), there have been more unregistered gun sales than people living on planet earth.
Â
I'm waiting for the Zombie Apocalypse to start, then the gun control issue will be a moot point. :-)Â
Ken you are so right. The NRA could not care less about carnage. This needs to be a grassroots movement on the part of the majority of Americans to fix gun access to make it make sense for the realities of public safety.
 @Citizen#3457899654 The NRA has more than 4 MILLION members. Sounds pretty grass roots to me, compared to any other civil rights organization.
 @Citizen#3457899654 Somehow I doubt you are the spokesman for the NRA. It seems that all the safety training, the support for laws to keep criminals from getting firearms and so on is not caring about the carnage. Its in their best interests to care for if they didn't they would lose support fast. What you claim pegs the BS meter.
Ken, I just read some of the comments and see most of them have comments regarding registration. I am looking at both sides of your story which appears to be 2 very different subjects, background checks and Monroe (supposed site of sale). Let me explain what happens to become a seller at the Monroe gun show. In order to sell or have a table to display the individual(s) must be a member of the Washington Arms Collectors or WAC. In order to become a member said individual meet certain criteria: 1) proof of residency (usually a drivers license) and a License to Carry a Concealed Weapon. In order to obtain the LCCW a complete background check is conducted as well as fingerprinting. In addition, WAC does background checks. I seriously doubt a member of WAC is going to jeopardize their membership by selling to someone who is not a member without doing a full background check as completed in all the paperwork one must complete. As a former law enforcement officer I know felons show up on background checks because they are not allowed to have firearms. I hope this explanation has helped. I do quite a bit of research before I write and one would think you would have done the same instead of pointing fingers.
 @grandmat Thank you for being a voice of reason amongst the liberal hype. A LOT of us legal gun owners appreciate it.
So they don't know where he got the gun.... IF he got it at the Monroe Gun Show he would have been a member of the Washington Arms Collectors, which requires a background check to become a member. (Where is the loop-hole?)Â
Â
Washington State has no method of checking someone's background as a private party. We have no method in Washington for checking serial numbers of firearms as a private party (Oregon does). Â We should be able to call the non-emergency number of any police station to get this info but we law abiding "Private Citizens" are not allowed to use the system for those purposes.
 @M1Gunr See my comment above.
So if meathead inherited the gun how does casting suspicion on gun shows whet your liberal whistle, Ken?
I am so glad you brought the subject up Ken. Â Like I have been saying we have all seen the rise in gun violence ever since the scare tactics of the right wing have started resulting in more people who not only prove they are not responsible but they are outright dangerous to the entire country.
Â
Look at how many right wing extremists have MURDERED INNOCENT PEOPLE Â and how many POLICE OFFICERS have been gunned down in just these past few years alone. Â
Â
These horrible tragedies committed by these extremists are opening everyone's eyes.Â
I totally get your point with regard to gun violence and random killings.Â
Â
I just can't see a solution.
Â
Sadly, while we US citizens rely on our right to own lethal weapons, there is no provision that requires a psychological panel of tests or certificate of mental health in order to own a gun. I imagine that even if there were such requirements, illegal gun sales would occur, regardless of the law.Â
Â
Because some people who own guns do not value life or conduct themselves with any semblance of personal accountability or consideration for the safety of others, people die. And it IS getting worse. Factors certainly include but are not limited to, our increasingly selfish society and lack of parental involvement along with the ease of access to semi automatic and automatic weapons.
Â
If the 2nd Amendment were repealed, people would continue to own guns. Thanks to the bad apples, there are few choices to stop the violence. Do we relinquish entirely our 4th Amendment rights - submitting to random searches by the AFT in order to pin down the straw sellers? Even under that extreme big brother scenario, there would be underground gun sellers.Â
Â
Because alot of humans are control freaks, killing someone with a gun is the ultimate control over another person.Â
Â
Where is that damned asteroid? Time to wipe the slate clean and start over.
 @Andrew Bush One reason there appears to be more violence is because that is exactly what is happening. With Washington State budget like it is a lot of Law Enforcement Officers have lost their jobs, felons have been released from prisons, and of course, McNeil has closed. When one thinks about all the variations as to why there is a rise in violence then current situation should not be a surprise. Australia is a perfect example of taking away firearms, their violence is one of the highest in the world. If a felon wants a piece of firearm, they will do what they can to get it.
 @Andrew Bush Seems like the latest shooting have been from left wing nut jobs.
 @Andrew Bush Right wing extremists? I never would have labeled Gang members Right Wing extremists. I am convinced you are referring to these newly converted Conservatives. http://newsone.com/2028635/chicago-gun-violence/Â
 @d_2 I don't understand.  Is this link to Farrakhan joining the mayor to prevent street gangs?Â
Â
Or the Mom Who Tries To Uplift Community With Candy Stand Loses 7-Year-Old To Gunfire.Â
Â
I don't know how you people live with yourselves knowing that 70% of these crimes are by using guns stolen from YOUR homes. Â
Â
Too bad none of you want to take any responsibility for the mess you have contributed to.Â
Â
These right wing extremists who fantasize about being dirty harry are destroying America. Â
Â
I really don't care if you register your weapons as long as we start  Lock up irresponsible gun owners who's own negligence is putting weapons into the hands of criminals. Â
Â
Â
 @Furd  @Andrew Bush  @d_2 I've never had a gun stolen from my home either.  Won't happen unless they can lift my 1000lb safe that is bolted to the concrete floor either...
 @d_2  @Furd  @Andrew Bush ask Gil Kerlikowske where his department issue Glock is?
 @d_2  @Furd  @Andrew Bush OTOH...ask Gil Kerlikowske where his Glock is..the department issue one?
 @Andrew Bush  @d_2  @Furd Even if he won't, I'll say this:
http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2012/08/you-are-your-own-first-responder.html
Yes, law-abiding gun owners ARE helping stop crime, and helping reduce the overall crime rate, and our presence sometimes deters crimes in ways that might even benefit YOU.
You must find such facts annoying. Oh, well.
 @Andrew Bush  @Furd @Bush... Again.. I am the reason? You are whacked. You're the reason for highway fatalities - you own a car right? You are losing credibility fast. Not to mention your Obama get your guns dribble. When you want to start debating at an intelligent level.. let m know. Until then.. you can continue to blame lawful and responsible gun owners for all your ills.Â
@Andrew Bush: I have had no guns stolen from me, as I am a responsible gun owner, as are a majority of those you pant with such a broad brush. I've contributed to no mess, yet your blantant generalizations try to tie me and millions of other to your half-cocked (pun intended) rant.
 @Andrew Bush  @d_2  @Furd No we are not. What we are saying is that the "More guns means more crime" is false. There is a causality issue with the anti gun claim that the number of guns is related to the amount of gun crime. We simply point out how false the claim is by noting how as more guns are out there the crime rate does not rise and is in fact going down.
 @d_2  @Furd You and your buddies here who are constantly claiming that arming everyone is bringing down gun violence.  That is WRONG!!!
Â
You and your fellow gun owners Are the reason when it is your guns that are in the hands of the criminals.Â
Â
I am pointing out that we are all paying dearly for all different programs to combat a huge problem that gun owners themselves are contributing to greatly. Â I said Millions before but its actually Billions and it is effecting all other budgets in all levels of government.Â
Â
Now you and your buddies are attacking these programs referring to them and any new ones that are even discussed as nothing more than "OBAMA"S GONE GET YER GUNS!
Â
Â
Â
Â
Â
Â
 @Andrew Bush  @Furd Again Mr. Bush... where did I indicate that I should take credit for anything? Why am I the reason? That's about as absurd as me being the reason that Gov't issued food stamps are being pimped on the streets too. Ridiculous.
 @Andrew Bush Not at all, I'm just saying that I don't know anyone that has had a gun stolen from their home.
@d_2@Furd
 Are you trying to take credit for the drop in gun violence??  All of us are forced to spend hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars to to fight the fact that so many irresponsible gun owners weapons wind up in the hands of the criminals.  YOU are the reason.
Â
Policies at the federal, state, and local levels have attempted to address gun violence through a variety of methods, including restricting firearms purchasing by youths and other "at-risk" populations, setting waiting periods for firearm purchases, establishing gun "buy-back" programs, targeted law enforcement and policing strategies, stiff sentencing of gun law violators, education programs for parents and children, and community-outreach programs.
Â
Do you realize how many millions are being spent on the city, county, state and federal levels to combat what amounts to reckless gun owners? Â
Â
Hey why don't you call  the NRA.  Surely if they can afford so many lobbyists they have researched this issue. Â
Â
 @Furd Sounds like you are ill informed about how many guns used to commit crimes are stolen.Â
 @Furd  @Andrew Bush Sorry Furd.. as you can see, I said 'Bush' as the leading word. The response was to add support to your comment about a gun being stolen.
 @d_2  @Andrew Bush I am neither disturbed nor blinded. Please learn to respond to the original post that upsets you rather than the last post.
 @Furd  @Andrew Bush Bush... you're disturbed and blinded by facts. I have never had a gun stolen. Who are you talking about? My link was reference to gun violence in Chicago conducted by persons who are not even close to being labeled as a Right Wing Extremist. In response to your wide comment around the majority of the crimes being committed by extreme Conservatives.Â
 @Andrew Bush  @d_2 I've never had any guns stolen from my home. I don't know anyone else who has had guns stolen from their homes.
 @Andrew Bush You're not very bright, and you lie. Why don't you back up your claims.
@progun
Â
Why not SeattleJoe? Â Why does this list bother you so much? Â Â
Â
-- February 2010: An angry tax protester named Joseph Ray Stack flies an airplane into the building housing IRS offices in Austin, Texas. (Media are reluctant to label this one "domestic terrorism" too.)
-- March 2010: Seven militiamen from the Hutaree Militia in Michigan and Ohio are arrested and charged with plotting to assassinatÂÂe local police officers with the intent of sparking a new civil war.
-- March 2010: An anti-goverÂÂnment extremist named John Patrick Bedell walks into the Pentagon and opens fire, wounding two officers before he is himself shot dead.
-- May 2010: A "sovereign citizen" from Georgia is arrested in Tennessee and charged with plotting the violent takeover of a local county courthouseÂÂ.
-- May 2010: A still-unidÂÂentified white man walks into a JacksonvilÂÂle, Fla., mosque and sets it afire, simultaneoÂÂusly setting off a pipe bomb.
-- May 2010: Two "sovereign citizens" named Jerry and Joe Kane gun down two police officers who pull them over for a traffic violation, and then wound two more officers in a shootout in which both of them are eventually killed.
-- July 2010: An agitated right-wingÂÂer and convict named Byron Williams loads up on weapons and drives to the Bay Area intent on attacking the offices of the Tides Foundation and the ACLU, but is intercepteÂÂd by state patrolmen and engages them in a shootout and armed standoff in which two officers and Williams are wounded.â
-- January 2009: A white supremacisÂÂt named Keith Luke embarks on a killing rampage in Brockton, Mass., raping and wounding a black woman and killing her sister, then killing a homeless man before being captured by police as he is en route to a Jewish community center.
-- February 2009: A Marine named Kody BrittinghaÂÂm is arrested and charged with plotting to assassinatÂÂe President Obama. BrittinghaÂÂm also collected white-suprÂÂemacist material.
-- April 2009: A white supremacisÂÂt named Richard Poplawski opens fire on three Pittsburgh police officers who come to his house on a domestic-vÂÂiolence call and kills all three, because he believed President Obama intended to take away the guns of white citizens like himself. Poplawski is currently awaiting trial.
-- April 2009: Another gunman in Okaloosa County, Florida, similarly fearful of Obama's purported gun-grabbiÂÂng plans, kills two deputies when they come to arrest him in a domestic-vÂÂiolence matter, then is killed himself in a shootout with police.
-- May 2009: A "sovereign citizen" named Scott Roeder walks into a church in Wichita, Kansas, and assassinatÂÂes abortion provider Dr. George Tiller.
-- June 2009: A Holocaust denier and right-wing tax protester named James Von Brunn opens fire at the Holocaust Museum, killing a security guard.
2009: A white supremacisÂÂt named Richard Poplawski opens fire on three Pittsburgh police officers who come to his house on a domestic-vÂÂiolence call and kills all three, because he believed President Obama intended to take away the guns of white citizens like himself. Poplawski is currently awaiting trial.
-- July 2008: A gunman named Jim David Adkisson, agitated at how "liberals" are "destroyinÂÂg America," walks into a Unitarian Church and opens fire, killing two churchgoerÂÂs and wounding four others.
-- October 2008: Two neo-Nazis are arrested in Tennessee in a plot to murder dozens of African-AmÂÂericans, culminatinÂÂg in the assassinatÂÂion of President Obama.
-- December 2008: A pair of "Patriot" movement radicals -- the father-son team of Bruce and Joshua Turnidge, who wanted "to attack the political infrastrucÂÂture" -- threaten a bank in Woodburn, Oregon, with a bomb in the hopes of extorting money that would end their financial difficultiÂÂes, for which they blamed the governmentÂÂ. Instead, the bomb goes off and kills two police officers. The men eventually are convicted and sentenced to death for the crime.
-- December 2008: In Belfast, Maine, police discover the makings of a nuclear "dirty bomb" in the basement of a white supremacisÂÂt shot dead by his wife. The man, who was independenÂÂtly wealthy, reportedly was agitated about the election of President Obama and was crafting a plan to set off the bomb.
Â
I am compiling a list of 2011 and 2012 still.  There are many many more.... Stay tuned
@d_2 @Andrew @progun Thanks. I agree. I guess I am just tired of seeing the comments from "macho" types about how if they were in the movie theatre or such and such a place, they could've taken the shooter out. Just don't see the typical gun owner (even if they have a conceal permit) doing that.
 @Anarchy  @Andrew  @progun @Anarchy... it wasn't asked of me... but I'll run with it.
By and large the 'protection' statement is primarily used in the context of personal home protection. And there are countless recorded instances of this. Your reference to mass or public is more centered around a very small subset of persons who either 'Open Carry' (which scares the crap out of Libs) or the ones who have a CPL. There are instances where persons carrying legally have responded to situations where crimes were occurring. Wasn't there one in downtown Seattle where a person w/ a CPL shot a criminal legally at a Bus stop? If I have to, I will find it. Furthermore, if there were more folks carrying perhaps it would be more common. Could have used it at Luby's in Texas. McDonald's in CA. Maybe in Aurora too? But, there comes a certain responsibility too. Let's take the NYC instance where bystanders were shot by local police. Again, I think you have misunderstood the primary setting when 'personal protection' exists, and that is far more applied to ones home.
@Andrew Bush @progun I always see pro gun people saying that the guns are for protection. So why, whenever there is a mass or public shooting, has a private citizen even come forward and taken out the perp?
 @Andrew Bush Again Mr. Bush (assuming you're older than 14), you are the one that started the partisan labeling. There are Right wingnuts out there - no question. But, you phrase it such that there are no Left wingnuts. Gang violence at the gun is rampant. I'm thinking they are leaning Left. Just an educated hunch. Right wingnuts are on par with Taliban extremists? Dude... you now have official mental issues. No comparison. BTW- only you are concerned about which way a criminal leans. It's bupkiss and doesn't mean anything.
 @Andrew Bush  @progun Doesn't bother me at all, except you take this list of nuts and use it to smear millions of people that wouldn't dream of doing these acts. You are deceptive and demeaning of a large number of people. If you can build a case that the right wing believes like these nuts then do it but actually build a case don't just say "these guys are probably right wing so all right wing people are nuts". Build the case Mr Bush don't just list a bunch of irrelevant events.
 @Andrew Bush  @d_2 YOU are claiming "a rise in right wing extremists" Where is you data? You have a handful of anecdotal cases you keep reposting, some of which don't even support you thesis (Stack was a LEFTIST, Nazis are not right-wing, they are a SOCIALIST WORKERS party, etc). You claim a rise; that means a trend, which needs statistically significant data to support it - Got any? Or just your normal copy-paste gunk?
 @d_2 You seem to be stuck.  You want to deny the rise in right wing extremists as only being a very small percentage.Â
Â
Which accounts for what? Â You want an exact percentage of the right wingers out there murdering people? Â Â
Â
It does matter which way a criminal leans when they are murdering REAL people. Â
Â
That's not beating a partisan drum. Â Those are Real American Terrorists I have listed. Â
Â
No different than the Taliban extremists. Â
Â
 @Andrew Bush Unless... you are trying to point out that the vast majority of gun crimes are committed by criminals and a low percentage by Right Wing Extremists. Dare to say that Left Wing Extremists or... perhaps those that lean to the Left commit more gun crimes? What's your point? I don't think you have one beyond a venomous uneducated statement. Pitting one side vs the other. When in fact, it doesn't matter which way a criminal leans. Just keep beating the partisan drum, there are plenty of idiots w/o a brain that will follow.
 @Andrew Bush Then what's your point? Extremists account for a very small population of those crimes? Your quote was:
Â
Look at how many right wing extremists have MURDERED INNOCENT PEOPLE Â and how many POLICE OFFICERS have been gunned down in just these past few years alone. Â
Â
These horrible tragedies committed by these extremists are opening everyone's eyes
Â
Look at these horrible tragedies (and they are) committed by these extremists. Which accounts for what? You tell me what percentage. If your point is calling out a very low percentage in comparison to the whole.. then you're just spewing rhetoric. Which is it? Again, you tell me.
 @d_2 You don't make any sense.  I never said the majority of crimes are committed by right wing extremists. Â
Â
You need to reread my comment above. Â
 @Andrew Bush Nope, you're correct. It shows the collective data which indicates that gun violence has gone down. Where is your link that proves the majority of gun crimes are committed by Right Wing Extremists. I'll wait....
 @d_2  Your link does not show anything about the right wing gun owning extremists and their Militias which have murdered so many across America? Â
 @Andrew Bush  @progun So you copy-paste the same debunked list again. Whooo-hoo.What about the fact that as the gun ownership rate rises, even with the economy in the tank, crime ISN"T rising.
http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2012/08/graphics-matter-year-the-fourth-updated-again.html
http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2012/08/you-are-your-own-first-responder.html
http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/
Â
 @Andrew Bush  @progun Don't let the facts smack you in the face. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm
I have yet to see substantial numbers indicating that these gun crimes were committed by.. as you described it: Right Wing Extremists.
 @progun  @Andrew Bush Uh oh now comes his list of "right wing extremists" as he put it. He will post a list of whackjobs and their crimes and try to make every right wing person equal to these nuts. Can we say fallacious argument? He even thinks people are stupid enough to fall for it.